SGOTM8 - Own

[Andronicus]

About war: I had not planned on it this soon so three archers are still in the south on garrison and barb-clearing duties. If they are to move north, the lux rate will have to be raised to 20%, slowing our research rate. I still think it's a good idea to wait for contacts before declaring war. For one thing, the Chinese are out exploring but the Greeks are not.QUOTE]

If we wait until a) we become Rep and encourage China to revolt and b) we have built 2 cities and 2 roads to Shanghai we will have a stronger force and those mp units ewont have to leave just yet.
PS. advisor says China has more units than us but their army strength is ave to us.

voe up on roster?

 

[Abegweit]

We should not go to war before getting Republic and encouraging China into anarchy. Agreed. I would also like to get contacts with the outside world first, especially as China is exploring better than Greece.

However, expansion is the number one priority so let's plan on attacking as soon as we learn Republic and trade China into anarchy. A secondary, but important, issue is whether to attack Shanghai before it has completed the wonder.

 

[Andronicus]

Its over 24 hours and no recent sign in from voe. I'm not sure what the protocol is. I assume if I dont hear otherwise that its OK for me to play through - I can play tomorrow morning - 11 hours time. If voe is up before then please post a got it so we dont both play

Roster
voe (allow another 11 hours to post a got it)
Andronicus - will play through if dont hear otherwise
IstariAsuka - waiting
Symphony D.
stagnate
Own
Abegweit

if anyone thinks this is wrong please post

 

[Abegweit]

He hasn't been on the forum since he signed into this thread so he should be put on skip until we hear from him. IMO, you're up.

 

[stagnate]

I think we need to check shanghai and determine whether we can get China to build the wonder, or if we should give up. If they have a decent shot at completing it we need to make sure they don't change builds due to a declaration of war.

Although expansion is important, we need contacts and we should hope to have a couple of Chinese cities on other lands that we can get in a peace negotation. I do not think there is any way that they would trade the iron city for peace.

Hopefully we won't have to face off against chinese swords.

 

[Abegweit]

I don't believe I have ever seen the AI abandon a wonder build because of something as trivial as a war.

We do need to check the city to see whether we should hold off with the attack until it is completed as well as to judge what kind of attack force is needed.

Edit: I agree that overseas cities would be easier to get. IMO, they would be more useful too.

 

[Andronicus]

No so sure that an overseas city would be more useful than an iron city (unless it was an iron city OS) but you're right - the AI doesnt like to give up cities with resources.

I'll go ahead and play - this is my "got it"

 

[Andronicus]

Pre-flight
- settler 2N
- emb with Greeks - Athens will build collosus in 3 turns, they have not hooked up iron yet, 5spt, 80% science, 3 hoplites, they have spare wine, 6 cities
- emb with Chinese - Beijing has Pyramids, MoM starting - will take 20 turns @ 8spt, no lux, science 90% (2 entertainers), have horses hooked up (no HBR yet), 2 spears
- investigate Shanghei - only 1 spear defending! Coll due in 27 @ 4spt - I guess they would switch to lighthouse.
- investigate Chengdu 2 spears
- move archers to ECB to prevent flip risk, ECB switched to cat, I also switch our collosus build to FP (can be pre-build for HG if we can get mnarchy in trade) and FP build to court (will need eventually and am worried that 2 core cities building wonders prior to / during war may be unwise)

Turn 1 730BC
One barb warrior heads to gems (I send warrior there to defend) - lux 20%
011 built en route to Shanghai

IT archer wins v barb

Turn 2 710BC
Archer clears barb camp
ROP with Greece (get 34 gold) - I dont figure we will be attacking Greece within 20 turns and may wish to ally them - no rop with China as want to maintain rep

IT Athens completes collossus, building MoM. China research const (maybe they will build Great Wall - 1/2 of our golden age wonders?)

Turn 3 690BC
Move workers towards Shanghai for roading

IT
Wash settler -> settler, 02 court -> cat (this is our most productive city - needs 'duct ASAP - consider changing this for prebuild)
Chinese building GW in Beijing - if still 8spt this will be 30 turns from 750BC

Turn 4 670BC
Barbs in mountains S of jungle - send archers

IT 03 arch -> arch, 04 arch -> arch, 06 cat-> cat, ECB cat -> worker

Turn 5 650BC
Moving forces up and archers to barbs

Turn 6 630BC
Barb camp disbursed
012 en route to Shanghai
I mine one of the deserts near 08 - it has lots of food - needs shields

IT china demands we remove our worker stack from outside Chengdu - we agree but only after roading to connect Chengdu to our network
02 cat -> rax (we need to be able to build other infrastructure soon so this may be changed, but with war imminent a quick producer of vet units would be handy) 09 and 010 worker -> worker (if we have too many workers to support when we become rep they can be joined to form size 7 cities which triple unit support) Greece discovers currency.

Turn 7 610BC
MM

IT Wash settler -> settler

Turn 8 590BC zzzz

IT 04 arch -> arch, 06 cat -> court

Turn 9 570BC (Edit 550BC)
013 SE of Chengdu
Rep in 1 so turn down science to 50%

IT we learn Rep, 03 Arch -> arch 011 work -> work

Turn 10 550 BC (Edit 530BC)

I have not moved military units nor traded Rep - we need to decide timing as our large army will be expensive in repub until we get size 7 cities, also timing giving rep to catch china in anarchy (but us in rep ) would be neat. Settler is destined to go 1 E next move to settle, next city (settler will be built next turn) planned for 1W of our spear - not sure if anyone wants to build any after this.

Edit - cant find my save to upload and have to go to work like 20 min ago so will upload it later
Edit 2 - discovered I played an extra round - dates dont coincide from 570BC onwards - I should have stopped playing as was running late for work so rushed my write up and last 2 rounds - only found one mistake in my play so far - forgot to switch forest to plains for settler factory - fortunately saw this MMing next turn so could switch to iFP for same effect (ie settler will still be due next turn)

 

[Own]

Good turns Andy. Mind if I call you Andy ?

 

[Andronicus]

Good turns Andy. Mind if I call you Andy ?

Um yes ... I really really do

 

[Andronicus]

OK save uploaded
First apologies - somehow I have skipped a turn in my log and hence played an extra turn to 530BC

War readiness
We have an army in place with roads ready to transport our troops
We are average in strength to China and strong to Greece - but our strength is focused for battle
There are 5 archers and 3 cats in 012, 2 archers on hill S of 012 and spear 1N of 012 all not yet moved and all able to threaten both Shanghai and Chengdu this turn (but dow b4 entering their territory) Also 2 archers inc elite in ECB which can threaten Chengdu. It is likely we could take these 2 towns next turn. They were not heavily defended when last I checked - you may want to investigate first (only cost me 12 gold for Chengdu last time).
We also have 2 cats on their way north and 3 archers in our core cities - in case of galley landing troops near our core.
Edit - may be worth thinking about leaving 1 or 2 archers near 07 (cant reach from ECB because of river) as Chinese galley in reach of 07.

Govt
I have not revolted yet - I think we should revolt ASAP. The question then becomes - do we attack straight away and fight in anarchy with limitted ability to resupply or do we wait until we are a republic and then trade rep to China for all their gold then dow as soon as they revolt catching them in anarchy.
I favour the latter although every wait strengthens them and our troop support will be high at beginning of rep
China has 20 turns(sorry 19) till it builds Great Wall - poss less if Beijing either expands or is using less entertainers.
Other option is trade now, dow when China revolts and wait our revolt until we are sure of war outcome and peace is near. Greece will give all 3 techs it knows for rep. If we ally them (? with Rep) we will need to fight China 20 turns. I think our first goal must be to swiftly take Shanghei and Chengdu, then regroup all forces (perhaps 1 or 2 left to guard jungle area) and assault Beijing - the pyramids would be a big prize. Alternatively we could fight a limitted war and take the 2 small towns, get peace, then attack Beijing after it builds the Wall (being size 7 means the wall has no effect on this city).

Research
I chose lit, but this can be changed as no research done yet. Although this is optional, maps, curr and const can be tradeed for and AI more likely to research poly and HBR, si lib more tradable. Other option is poly -> monarchy for HG switching 05 from FP to palace as prebuild, but that seems like an unecessary research delaying our flight goal.

Edit - screenie of future war zone attached - yellow dots are planned future cities

 

[Andronicus]

Before playing my last turns I did an analysis of our core cities and which tiles they could work when up to size 12. I believe once we are in rep we need to quickly get ducts in place in all except Wash on lake and 08 on river, then we can add workers to get up to size 12
I have done a dot map of sorts giving suggested tile usage which results in all land tiles exc a few mountains north and south being used. Those using coast tiles would need a harbour exc 08 which has excess food.
The coloured crosses correspond to the colour of dots that city would work
(analysing the outcome of this shows us to be shield short but commerce rich with only 4 towns likely to have 10spt after corruption until rails and factories).
I did this so we could think about which tiles to mine and which to irrigate. By no means do I think this is necessarily the best use, that after all will vary from time to time.
I would leave the mountains (other than goat already done) until after the rest. I have already commenced Washington's hill ready for rep.

 

[Abegweit]

Looking good, Andronicus

Agreed that ducts are high priority.

WRT war, I suggest another third option: Trade away Republic immediately. Then revolt. Dow when China goes into anarchy whether we are out of it or not. This is not as dangerous as your first choice and saves a few turns over the second.

I think it important to let the GW finish in Beijing before taking the town. That plus the Colossus in Athens plus any another wonder equals our GA. Given this, we might as well ally the Greeks to our cause, planning to take Beijing right near the end of the war. I can't see the map from here. Is there any possibility of stealing the horses without taking the city? Possibly using a combat settler?

BTW, according to CAII our net income in Republic will be slightly better than it is now despite the unit costs.

I suppose our next research choice should be Polytheism, relying on the AI to get Horseback Riding.

Edit: Just to be clear, Polytheism is to get out of the Age, not to get Monarchy. If we get the GW, we do not need the Gardens. The FP should complete unless we get an opportunity to rush it. Literature is an optional tech and we should try to trade for it, not research. If we have to, we can come back to it later; there are plenty of things to build in the meantime.

 

[Andronicus]

Looking good, Andronicus

Agreed that ducts are high priority.

WRT war, I suggest another third option: Trade away Republic immediately. Then revolt. Dow when China goes into anarchy whether we are out of it or not. This is not as dangerous as your first choice and saves a few turns over the second.

I think it important to let the GW finish in Beijing before taking the town. That plus the Colossus in Athens plus any another wonder equals our GA. Given this, we might as well ally the Greeks to our cause, planning to take Beijing right near the end of the war. I can't see the map from here. Is there any possibility of stealing the horses without taking the city? Possibly using a combat settler?

BTW, according to CAII our net income in Republic will be slightly better than it is now despite the unit costs.

I suppose our next research choice should be Polytheism, relying on the AI to get Horseback Riding.

Edit: Just to be clear, Polytheism is to get out of the Age, not to get Monarchy. If we get the GW, we do not need the Gardens. The FP should complete unless we get an opportunity to rush it. Literature is an optional tech and we should try to trade for it, not research. If we have to, we can come back to it later; there are plenty of things to build in the meantime.

Wont argue with poly - just thought lit less likely to be researched by AI, but with generally slow AI research pace we will probably have to research poly ourselves and will get lit later in trade anyway.

Regards war timing - 2 Chinese cities are busy building wonders - if they dont stop it will severely hamper their ability to counter attack. I considered getting Shanghai and Chengdu at the beginning of my turn - I think this is what a very good player would have done - I'm just too cautious and tend to wait too long to take advantage of an opportunity - also I didnt like taking the risk of poor RNG backfiring on me and having to reort that my 5 archers not only couldnt defeat the 3 spears in those 2 cities and then the city losses on counter attack - maybe if I was playing just for me I might risk more.

Horses are just the other side of Shanghai - we need to take it to get horses. I would prefer to attack China before they have too many horses.

 

[Abegweit]

Regards war timing - 2 Chinese cities are busy building wonders - if they dont stop it will severely hamper their ability to counter attack. I considered getting Shanghai and Chengdu at the beginning of my turn - I think this is what a very good player would have done - I'm just too cautious and tend to wait too long to take advantage of an opportunity - also I didnt like taking the risk of poor RNG backfiring on me and having to reort that my 5 archers not only couldnt defeat the 3 spears in those 2 cities and then the city losses on counter attack - maybe if I was playing just for me I might risk more.

I won't argue with that logic. I tend to want to wait for overwhelming force before attacking too. Maybe it is too conservative but I hate attacking and failing to take an enemy town.

Horses are just the other side of Shanghai - we need to take it to get horses. I would prefer to attack China before they have too many horses.

They don't know HBR, but I see your point. It's just another reason to go to war now. With horses, we have the capabilty of taking on the Greeks. Which reminds me of another reason to bring them onside in the war: to provoke their GA now instead of later. Maybe even while they are in anarchy The Greek issue seems to me to be a good argument in favour of starting the war immediately.

 

[Andronicus]

Woken up @ 12.15am with scary thought
Great Wall is militaristic + industrial
China are militaristic + industrial
We dont want China to build Great Wall do we???

If we capture Pyramids (industrial) and Collossus (expansionist) we only need build one (any) great wonder for our GA

OK, I'm back to sleep and dreams of civ conquoring

 

[Own]

Wow, good call. I don't dream about civ (I wish I would) but I think about it for hours while lying in bed (you'd think I'd have a civ dream now and then, wouldn't ya?).

 

[Abegweit]

Woken up @ 12.15am with scary thought
Great Wall is militaristic + industrial
China are militaristic + industrial
We dont want China to build Great Wall do we???

If we capture Pyramids (industrial) and Collossus (expansionist) we only need build one (any) great wonder for our GA

OK, I'm back to sleep and dreams of civ conquoring

Great point. We don't need the wall and we don't want them to have it. Beijing, here we come.

 

[Andronicus]

No takers for next turn? - should be IstariAsuka by my reckoning

Roster
Andronicus - done his dash
IstariAsuka - go for it
Symphony D. - ready if IstariAsuka doesnt log soon
stagnate
Own
Abegweit
voe - if your still game let us know and you can be slotted in

The next few turns should be fun with Chinese war imminent
- we have at max 19 turns (could be as few as 15) before China builds Great Wall - it would be nice to get Beijing by then
- goals of Chinese war - Shanghei for horses, Beijing for pyramids and Chengdu to relieve cultural pressure on jungle cities. Poss cities on another island in peace treaty ?? iron.
Rep ready to go - suggest waiting 1 turn to complete current (? last from settler factory) settler then keep Wash to 5fpt during anarchy so grows to size 7 increasing unit support (08 should also be able to grow -may req a worker join to reach size 7 by time emerge from anarchy.
Dont forget to move an archer or 2 into range to defend 07 if Chinese galley drops off a unit - maybe move one up from core cities.

 

[Abegweit]

Don't forget to bring the Greeks in. We them to squander their GA on the war.