SGOTM8 - Own

[AlanH]

Welcome to your game thread. Please use it and subscribe to it. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on August 5, midnight, server local time.

Thanks go to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

The variant is Hydrophobic Conquest. You are America, your goal is to conquer your archipelago world, and you are afraid of water.

The rules are simple:

1. You will build no boats. Seaborne units are all disabled for America.
3. You must win by Conquest. America must be the only civ standing at the end of your game.
4. Red and Gold Laurels will be awarded respectively to the members of the C3C and Classic teams achieving the fastest conquests.
5. PTW and Vanilla teams are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders before 1000 BC in this game

Here's the start:

​

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - America
Opponents - Six, preselected
World size - 80 wide by 80 high. (Small)
Difficulty - Emperor
Landform - Archipelago
Barbarians - Raging

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
- America can't build boats. The AI can.
- All victory conditions are available except Diplomatic and Spaceship.
- Settlers, workers, scouts, explorers, leaders, cruise missiles and tactical nukes can be loaded into helicopters.
- A side effect is AIs can load tactical nukes into any boat with transport capacity ... so beware
- Bombers have lethal sea bombard only (lethal land bombard removed)
- Cruise missiles, stealth bombers and F-15 have both lethal sea and land bombard.

Additional change:
- C3C will use the same contact and map trading rules as Classic. Contacts can be traded between two civs when one of them knows Writing. Maps can be traded between two civs when one of them knows MapMaking.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included in this game. If you have played SGOTM 7 then you will be ready. If not you may need to download and unzip a small graphics mod pack. Vanilla/Mac players need to install the GOTM mods. The best way to achieve this is to use the relevant All-in-one GOTM Installer for your OS, linked in my signature.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game. Vanilla players in particular should understand the late-game equalisation modifications that we don't often have to worry about.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. The Classic (Play the World and vanilla 1.29) versions of Civ3 AND Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) are all supported in this game. Because of the different game play, Classic and C3C teams will play for separate awards.
B. All teams must play the sponsored variant.
C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

 

[Own]

Allright, lets talk strategy.

First, it seems our first attack will be with only paratroops and planes. This means we MUST have a huge tech lead, so the AI won't have planes when we attack. This makes bombing just like artillery. I would suggest cxxc spacing with occasional cxxxc. The republic slingshot seems ideal. We don't start with alpha, but our opponents will be isolated. After we get to a republic as soon as we can, we need lit for libraries. Then beeline to education for unis, and then cops observe. The Collosus would be nice but we have to concentrate on the rep sling.

I guess we then drop paras off and then bomb then

Anyone want to agree, disagree, add on, etc?

 

[Symphony D.]

I'm not so sure a Republic Slingshot will work, depending on who our opponents are and how the map is configured, since it's a custom job. If there are a decent number of SEA opponents and the map looks like SGOTM7's did (I followed that loosely from the sidelines) then it seems likely that the AIs could establish some decent trade. It'll really be a decision we have to muse over more though, as we'll have to commit to it. I also like the Colossus, though we as of yet don't seem to have a good site for it.

Regarding our primary form of attack, I agree with Bombers, but don't agree with Paratroopers. Paratroopers (90 Shields, 4.9.1) are, quite frankly, trash. The real trick is to use Helicopters (100 Shields) now that they have a Transport Capacity of 3. I would rather have a Helicopter dropping 3 TOW Infantry (120 Shields, 12.14.1) than 5 Paratroopers or 4 Modern Paratroopers, who can pretty much only defend.

So I think our invasion strategy is mostly going to be based around Bombers, Helicopters, and TOW Infantry (or maybe Cavalry if we have sufficient Bombers, though I can't remember if they can load into helicopters). After establishing a beachhead with these forces and either burning an enemy city or capturing a worker (likely both) we can then install airfields and bring in Tanks or Modern Armor to mop up.

Considering that the game will, at the very minimum, run on until the late Industrial Age, I submit that we should go with primarily CXXXC spacing, as CXXC is going to be overly restrictive for the large-shield units that the IA requires and that will ultimately wind up slowing us down at the most critical stage of the game for little benefit in AA and MA, as our units won't be able to really go anywhere unless there's another AI on our starting landmass.

I think stockpiling Spears to upgrade into Infantry might be crucial, and will also help defend our land in the two ages until we can advance. Having Leonardo's Workshop could also be a huge boon. In fact, given this is supposed to be an aggressive conquest, and it'd better to have a bunch of cheap units sitting around waiting to be upgraded rather than trying to crank them all out right before an invasion (remember: time is the most valuable resource of all) I think it might be prudent to ignore Republic entirely and go for Monarchy and eventually Communism, as if we go with a loose city spacing Republic will afford us virtually nil in terms of unit support.

Then again if we go with Monarchy and amass units for later upgrade, we can perhaps afford CXXC.

Regarding opening moves, I think the very first thing we should do is move our Scout onto that mountain to the west and see if there's anything better than our poor start location.

 

[IstariAsuka]

OK, before we talk about what units in particular we're going to use to invade, it's important to decide how we're going to prep for the invasion.

Are we going to amass units (after killing any resident AIs of our island) throughout the MA and early IA, and then go for a massive upgrade of units? If that is the case, then Republic would not be ideal, the low unit support would crush our economy.

I think mass-upgrading would be the fastest method of going about our invasion--once the technology is available, we already have our army. This plan would stipulate primarily CXXC city placement, as that would provide a boost to our economy, and much needed unit support.

CXXC would also allow us a bit more flexibility in terms of specialists, which we should be able to use extensively to cut down research by a turn on most techs.

I honestly don't think going for Republic is the way to go. It seems contrary to any aims of mass-upgrading units, doesn't allow for MP (we can keep entertainment at 0 if we have 3 MP in all our cities, most likely), and I have a hunch the that AIs will be talking to each other, and could possibly beat us to the slingshot, especially given our lame starting spot.

Anyways, as for opening moves, I agree the scout should probably move west to the mountain. I'm thinking moving the settler SE looks like it may be an acceptable spot for the capitol. (what are the bonuses given by that food tile?)

Oh, and I don't particularly like the idea of the collosus, at least based not right now. Maybe in a different city. But right now I just can't see us wasting the time on it in our capitol.

Edit: Blah, Symphony D. beat me to some of my points... Darn you and your editing of posts!!

 

[Own]

The real trick is to use Helicopters

Oh yeah, forgot those.

we can then install airfields and bring in Tanks or Modern Armor to mop up.

Nope. We can never fight with tanks or modern armors. Only units flagged with "foot unit" can be tranported by airlift or heli. That includes cavalry.

Having Leonardo's Workshop could also be a huge boon.

Amen.

I think it might be prudent to ignore Republic entirely and go for Monarchy and eventually Communism, as if we go with a loose city spacing Republic will afford us virtually nil in terms of unit support.

I don't agree. We need to research lightning speed, for when we initially invade all we'll have is ToW and bombers, and if we don't beat the AI to flight, we'll have a big intercepting problem. Free unit support is ugly in rep but the commerce bonus and lower corruption greatly make up for it. I think we need to build warriors, swords, etc. for eventually ToW upgrade. That costs a lot of money, and we may only be able to upgrade 20, so we don't need to frantically build them for upgrades. We need to worry about infrastructure.

Another thing, Sistine Chapel could be a big boon, even bigger than Leo's. A cathedral in each city with a market and 4 lux regardless of govt requies no lux tax. We have till late industrial to build infra, so don't be afraid of all those shields, and 4 lux will be easy. If we get 6 (not at all impossible) we won't even need cathedrals. Lux are easy on smaller maps, cause they're more crammed everywhere, and since we won't be warring till late industrial, we can trade withou planning a war against a civ.

 

[Symphony D.]

Nope. We can never fight with tanks or modern armors. Only units flagged with "foot unit" can be tranported by airlift or heli. That includes cavalry.

A quick check of the C3C Editor shows Cavalry, Tanks, Mech. Infantry, and Modern Armor all have the Airlift Tag checked for Airports and Airfields. I'm not seeing anything in game mods about this changing.

With that in mind, I'd say the role of TOW is decreased to just the initial invasion force to secure a beachhead for bringing in Tanks, Mech Infs, or Modern Armor from Airfields and Airports. For that to work it may be prudent to set up an Airfield farm somewhere within our territory later.

Considering Modern Armor takes awhile to get to, it may just be best to use Mech Infantry offensively. This has an added benefit in that whatever Spearmen we make, ever, will ultimately become Mech Infantry if they survive that long, giving us a ready-made army that can attack and defend pretty well as soon as we hit the Modern Age. TOW Infantry coupled with Helicopters will essentially serve as Aerial Marines to give them bases to deploy to and attack from.

This works for the early game because it gives us a large defensive force (Spearmen) to keep the AI off our island with (which later becomes the offensive force) and a moderate sized attack force (Warriors, Swords, Archers, Longbows) to kill stragglers with (that eventually becomes our shock force).

If we pursue this method of stockpiling troops to eventually upgrade we're going to have to have lots of cities (CXXC) for troop cap in either Republic or Monarchy. As a result we're going to have high rank corruption, and a lot of specialists as IstariAsuka points out. Those can be either scientists or taxmen. I personally think that if we go CXXC and utilize specialists we can get troops, happiness (MPs) and research (specialists) all at once, while with Republic we will at most likely only bet getting happiness (which will require luxuries or [for this game] mostly useless culture buildings) and research.

 

[Andronicus]

Checking in - this looks like fun
Some quick thoughts
1) Research speed is essential for quick conquest - we need to get to adv flight ASAP
2) Need to have invasion force ready when helis avail (my understanding is we can airlift tanks via airports, therefore we need helis to land settler and defence units, then dow -> build city and rush airport, next turn lifting tank from each home city ready for attack next turn. Repeat this for each island.
Therefore I argue we do need republic - ASAP. Also we only need enough military to take / secure our island before we get to tanks, therefore little support costs until we are big enough to support it (I would not disagree with communism prior to invasion if that would not delay production too many turns)
All this is well into future - initially we need to decide on settle ? desert tile on lake or the plains between lake and sea if we seriously think we can snag collossus with it. Any other suggestions?

 

[Own]

while with Republic we will at most likely only bet getting happiness (which will require luxuries or [for this game] mostly useless culture buildings) and research.

We don't need island defense. This isn't always war. Republic can support second most (democracy is most) units when all infra is in place, which we will have plenty of time to do. With 6 easy to get luxuries, and markets that's all we need for happiness. I don't know if we can get the slingshot, but at least we can still get republic eventually. The slingshot saves us maybe 20 turns? If there are any locals we can easily finish them off before we get republic. I think it would be safe to assume there's nobody on our island. Republic will probably cut our research time in 4. I think CXXXC with occasional CXXC is fine. That will give each city about 15 tiles, so low wastage pre-hosps and good production once we get hospitals.

 

[Andronicus]

re large defensive force - this appears to go against advice of most good players - the AI recognises attackers as stronger than defenders and is less likely to attack if this results in our military appearing stronger - in addition these can get rid of pesky landings whilst defenders can only watch on helplessly as valuable improvements are pillaged. I would expect us to need some force to deal with raging barbs and likely company on our island - we may want to keep them around a little while to speed up research pace until we have other contacts - depends who they are.
I think we need to balance a rapid expansion of our island with enough units to handle barbs - any co-habitants of our island may have to wait until barbs suppressed.

 

[Symphony D.]

I'm going to try and break my thoughts down a bit better because I feel I'm doing a poor job explaining myself. Here are the two options as I see them:

Option 1: Go for Republic, climb the tech tree as fast as possible, get to Advanced Flight, use Helicopters to land Infantry / TOW to secure landing sites, then use Tanks / Mech Infantry to invade. Until just prior to invasion, keep a minimal defense force and run for tech.

Option 2: Go for Monarchy, also climb the trech tree as fast as possible, get to Advanced Flight, use Helicopters to land Infantry / TOW to secure landing sites, then use Tanks / Mech Infantry to invade. Keep a large army prior to the invasion with the intent to upgrade it at the critical time and be ready to go.

Here's why I support Option 2:

If we go with Option 1, we likely will move through tech slightly faster, especially if the Republic Slingshot works. However, once we get into the Industrial Age, we have to mad-dash for our units to be ready in time for when Helicopters show up. If we go CXXC for this, our cities will be fairly resource poor and it will take them a long time to crank out 100+ Shield units. Even if we go CXXXC mostly and can produce them at a good clip, it still takes a long time to build up a force of 100 or so units.

The other problem is that Motorized Transport is just before Advanced Flight, meaning unless we gave up, say, ToE to snag Hoover's, or Flight to stockpile Bombers, we would have 4 - 8 turns to build tanks before getting Advanced Flight. This means we would have a relatively puny strike force to follow up any aerial invasion with if we choose Tanks.

If we had a large standing body of Spearmen (up through Infantry) sitting around, and then went one tech farther to Computers, we could upgrade them all to Mech Infantry and have a large standing army only slightly worse than Tanks on the offense, and way more defensively capable. Plus we wouldn't have to build them, we could buy them. Of course if we have no defensive force sitting around, then using Mech Infantry instead of Tanks saves us nothing.

The fact that we could buy our main strike force means that we could instead focus our industry on getting stuff that has to be handbuilt, namely Bombers and Helicopters. We could also keep some older Infantry around for use as the Aerial Strike Force rather than using TOW Infantry, since we'd have them on hand, saving even more time. Basically we would need to only build Bombers and Helicopters to invade at that stage, rather than build Bombers, Helicopters, Tanks, and TOW Infantry.

It's an issue of saving time earlier (researching as fast as possible but winding up at the critical moment with a skeleton military) or saving time later (taking longer to get to the critical techs to launch an invasion but having the units on hand to upgrade into the army we need to actually invade).

If the concensus is to go Republic and keep troop levels low, I'll bow to the majority on that one, but we are going to be seriously conflicted regarding what to build when all those IA techs come at once and we need 3 to 5 different units in large numbers and our best cities are pumping out maybe 50 - 75 shields at most.

 

[Andronicus]

A thought re wonders

If all goes well we will have a considerable part of this game alone on our island in builders mode - we may get the opportunity to build wonders
I would argue that libraries, markets, courts and unis should come first, later banks and factories to support and build our invasion force, but if we do build wonders what will benefit us most

Collossus, Copernicus, Newtons for obvious science boost (ToE)
Pyramids are always great but on emporer will cost too much in sacrificed REX
Sun Tzu's so all our later tanks are vets
? Leo's if we get to modern armour upgrades
Adam Smith's - less money spent = more research
Hoover Dam - IMHOP the most important to build those 100spt units
Universal Suffrage (so we can stay Rep during war phase) - I rarely build this even when at war in rep - just make them short and sweet (ie decisive)
I may have missed some, but if not I would suggest considering collossus in AA, Sun Tzu's & Copernicus +/- Adam Smiths MA and Hoover & ToE IA

 

[Andronicus]

re upgrading infantry / mech infantry strike force v build tanks
upgrading option will cost much money -> less research so no quick modern armour but also delay getting to mech infantry
If use ToE to get atomic / electronics after researching refining (so know where oil is), can then research tanks with enough techs still to research to start building tanks in our newly Hoover boosted cities until adv flight when switch to half a doz helis (sorry also need airports in there) then going for bombers.
Both methods have pros and cons - if going via infantry pathway I would still see no need to build up too early (and pay for units that wont be used till much later) and I worry our attack may stall without overwhelming bomber support if our enemies build mech inf or TOWs - I guess we'll need decent bomber support anyway unless we catch them still with refilemen (wishful thinking on my part - but the earlier we get there the better our chances).
We dont know how many cities we will be able to build - we must make use of every shield producing tile by this stage of the game (a good reason not to settle in place)

 

[Symphony D.]

I'd say Pyramids and Sun Tzu's are virtually worthless on an Archipelago when they only work on your starting landmass. I'd rather build Granaries and Barracks individually than sink massive shields and time into a wonder that's fairly pointless considering the land form. Sun Tzu's would also detract from getting Leonardo's done.

To sum up all my thoughts, I'll put it this way: I am heavily set against playing a pure or even semi-pure builder mode for the first two ages, because once we become warmongers it will be an absolute nightmare trying to get all the units we need. I used to do it before when I was Warlord / Regent level and preparing a full offensive force from scratch will set us back anywhere from 25 to 50 turns depending how thorough we want to be if we have no real military to begin with. Unless we're going to go full-bore Communism with Mobilization and do some heavy Conscription, the time required to get all the units we'll need will really come back to bite us in the arse.

 

[Andronicus]

I have to agree with your point re pyramids and Sun Tzu's on small achipelago

 

[IstariAsuka]

Collossus, Copernicus, Newtons for obvious science boost (ToE)
Pyramids are always great but on emporer will cost too much in sacrificed REX
Sun Tzu's so all our later tanks are vets
? Leo's if we get to modern armour upgrades
Adam Smith's - less money spent = more research
Hoover Dam - IMHOP the most important to build those 100spt units
Universal Suffrage (so we can stay Rep during war phase) - I rarely build this even when at war in rep - just make them short and sweet (ie decisive)
I may have missed some, but if not I would suggest considering collossus in AA, Sun Tzu's & Copernicus +/- Adam Smiths MA and Hoover & ToE IA

I'm not entirely sure Collossus will be worth the time involved... I can't see building it in our capitol, and by the time we have a city well-suited for it, it is likely that the computer will have built it.

Pyramids just aren't that important. We aren't going to have a ton of cities--this is archipelago. Furthermore, by the time we could actually finish building it most of our non-corruption-crippled cities will probably already be a decent size, making the pyramids not very useful anyways.

Sun Tzu is just dumb. We're not going to have a ton of cities. The shield and time investment involved is waaaay to high to save like 10gpt. Especially given that getting it would probably severely undercut our ability to get much more imprtant wonders such as Leonardo's Workshop, and maybe even Bach or Sistine.

Adam Smith's I could see, but it'd need to be in a different city than Copernicus and Newton's. At that point we could probably spare an inner-core city to produce Smith.



Anyways, as a monarchy we will be making somewhat less commerce than as a republic. However, I feel that we will make up for this fact by not having to WAIT for an army, but rather by having one right away. Tech may go slightly slower, but we'll then save turns once we HAVE the tech.

Also, the slower tech pace will be mitigated by the face that we'd likely do CXXC, meaning more specialists.

The less money problem is also somewhat mitigated by MP. It's DOUBTFUL that we'll have more than 3 luxuries, it really is. Unless our land-mass is really strange. MP would allow us to keep luxury slider set to 0, which would otherwise probably not be possible until a Happiness Wonder in the middle ages.

I think monarchy is the way to go.

 

[Own]

If we go with Option 1, we likely will move through tech slightly faster,

Not just slightly faster, MUCH faster. The commerce bonus is huge.

In the modern age with factories, plants, railroads, mobilization, and golden age (F-15s) each city should be pumping out units in average 2 turns. On an average small arch with CXXC spacing we'll probably have 10 cities. 5 units a turn is 100 in 20. If we can upgrade 100 units by building them early, that saves us 20 turns of unit building. But republic will save us at least 50-75 turns of researching. All that upgrading will also cost us a hefty sum, and even in monarchy is still a lot of units to support. That will add extra time to research.

I stand with republic. Most great players agree republic is the best in almost every situation. This happens to not be one of the few situations that which monarchy is better.

I think we should think about a switch to a non-representative govt before invasion, as casualties are really high in modern wars. Probably monarchy, as we won't be big enough for commie to give benefits, the forced resettlement is ugly in facism, we all know what's going on with feudalism, and since most towns will be metros, monarchy will have more free units.

It's DOUBTFUL that we'll have more than 3 luxuries, it really is.

Not really, on small maps, lux are crammed everywhere, and trades will be easy. I wouldn't be surprised if we got 7 or 8.

 

[Symphony D.]

[EDIT] Alright, whatever, I'm not going to turn this into a slugfest over which way is superior. If folks wanna go Republic, fine. I think it's a mistake being builders for two to three ages when the ultimate objective is to take over the world, but my objections have been noted, and I'll be quiet about it.

When we have to hammer out 100 to 200+ units in about 30 - 40 turns though,if anybody complains I am totally saying "I told you so."

 

[Own]

if anybody complains I am totally saying "I told you so."

Deal. If we turn out to be wrong, we all have to type "Listen to Symphony D. from now on" 10 times .

 

[Symphony D.]

Sweet.

So, onto opening moves: Scout goes West to the Mountain. Do we found on site and live with irrigated FP for food and mined plains for shields, or look elsewhere for the capitol?

 

[Andronicus]

re settlement
I think in a limitted area we will be needing all shields
We start in food rich region - lots of FPs, I think it would be consigning our capital to low shields to settle in place. Because of the lake, both S to desert or SE to plains would benefit from sheep on plains, 3 FPs, 5 forests and still keeps hill usable. The desert tile has disadvantage that it cannot build harbour (for its only 1 sea tile) nor collossus, but potentially more shields from plains tiles instead of sea. Overall I am swayed towards the desert tile (which probably means we give collossus the flick).
Another thought for consideration - do we build another scout ( I think 1 enough on small achipelego) or go for early granary with forest chop and quick 2nd worker. Having more industrious workers allows for quicker set up of settler factory and roads to new cities Other choice is when to build warriors for baiting barbs or MP, but do we need them immediately?