SGOTM8 - Wacken

[WackenOpenAir]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Wacken_SG008_BC1750_01.SAV

I send the settler to the safe eastern position as suggested.

Turn1:
Writing completed. I estimate our slingshot chances to be reasonable, so i choose COL.
The barbarian in the south moved closer to our warrior, i fortify it as defending is better than attacking.

Turn2:
Barb attacked our warrior. Warrior undamaged.
Boston Worker -> Warrior.
Chicago founded, Worker started.

Turn3:
Warrior moves up the mountains in the south. Spotted Gems there.

Turn4:
Warrior kills another attacking barb.
Washington Settler -> Settler.

Turn5:
Warrior kills a 3th attacking barb.
New York Warrior -> Warrior.

Turn6:
Seattle founded. Worker started.

Turn7:
Boston warrior->warrior (needed to clear camp in southern mountains)
Warrior fortifies in mountain next to barb camp in mountain. I want 3 warriors before attacking the mountain camp.

Turn8:
Our scout is lost to barbs near china.
Washington Settler->Worker
Atlanta Worker->Granary

Turn9:
Southern warrior is killed by barb horse.

Turn10:
Washinton Worker->Worker
New York Warrior->Worker


Future plans:

I started mixing workers in the capital because the cities in the north above the mountains are of little use if we don't have the workers to cut the jungle there and connect the luxuries. I started another settler with the intention of blocking of the expansion path for the chinese in our direction. That jungle place might be a good area for our FP in the future. After 1 or 2 settlers, i suggest producing more workers from the capital until we have a sizable force to connect the luxury and cut the jungle.

Finally, i would like to grow to size 12 at high speed with worker joins. We can build extra workers in our 5 food towns and grow all cities from 6-12 in just a few turns. Therefore i started a granary in Atlanta.
I think we need to focus on building more workers for now. Military is not yet needed except for a small force to clear the southern barb camp so that we can safely build a colony on the gems.

It might be interesting to build culture in Boston in order to open the goody hut on the other side. We might even get a unit there to explore the place. At this moment i think a temple is too expensive though and we first need more workers and some warriors.

We have 25% of the world population. Noone has started colossus yet and our friends do not yet have writing. I think our chances for the slingshot and colossus are ok.
I do suggest however joining a worker in Philadelphia soon (when the one next to it is done with the tile) This will 3th citizen will require an extra MP warrior. The 4th that will grow in 5 turns should provide a luxury from commerce for itself at 20%. By the time it is gonna grow size5 in 15 turns, we should be revolting to republic.

 

[grahamiam]

nice looks like all we need to do for Philly is finish roading/mining that tile, then road the forest. That will cover all tiles usable up to size 6 (3 mined bg's, 2 mined grass, 1 roaded forest).

Also, I agree with a worker push. We have our core settled so spitting out workers to build-up the core then rejoin into cities is a good idea. Sounds like we can get gems, would be nice if we can get the dyes to the N also, that is if the Chinese play nice and let us have a source. With only 2 lux sources, markets will be less useful so maybe we push for Lit after the slingshot?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

nice looks like all we need to do for Philly is finish roading/mining that tile, then road the forest. That will cover all tiles usable up to size 6 (3 mined bg's, 2 mined grass, 1 roaded forest).

Also, I agree with a worker push. We have our core settled so spitting out workers to build-up the core then rejoin into cities is a good idea. Sounds like we can get gems, would be nice if we can get the dyes to the N also, that is if the Chinese play nice and let us have a source. With only 2 lux sources, markets will be less useful so maybe we push for Lit after the slingshot?

Lit after slingshot very certainly !
We should then be able to trade the bottom part of the three, iron working, math and map making i think.

We will certainly have at least a source fo dyes. One settler is on its way to the north there. Instead of taking the nearest dyes, i would however suggest blocking the path for the chinese and securing the whole area there.

Note: The area around philly might look a bit over worked now, but Boston also used tiles from there.

 

[Wotan]

This develops nicely. Good call on pushing a couple of Workers from Washington. We need to get NY and Atlanta to +5fpt now. they will be able to churn out Workers for us, while Washington keep producing Settlers. Let's fill the area between us and China with locations and then use the "army" of Workers produced by NY and Atlanta to turn the area into productive lands.

Xevious is up (are you back from holidays?) I am on deck.

Let's plan the area between us and China with a dot map. Putting a location way up there will probably not stop China and Greece from sending Settlers through our territory to settle south of it... Also, we need to start thinking about a possible site for the FP?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Yes, the FP.

We could build a second core in the jungle area and have the FP there. It will pretty much require a leader though to build it there. Corruption will be well over 50% even if we do it smart and make sure the FP is build in the city to be next in corruption list.

The cities around the FP will not be remarkably good, but with the extra OCN from FP and republic as well as the distance to the FP, i think they will be in the 40-60% range.

We can expect republic in 15 turns and literacy in 25.

The choise is to make war before or after libraries. If the chinese take our jungle, i think we should conquer this area before libraries. Possibly even with archers. If we attack during their expansion phase, they will be very weak. Lets hope the greeks are not gonna get there with their hoplites.
If we succeed in securing the area, we can first build libraries and aquaducts before going to war. In this scenario, maybe we should build libs in the river cities and aquaducts in the non river cities and have the non river cities (except colossus) build units without a library as well. This because we want a leader for the FP and because we can use all conquered ground for ICSing and adding scientists.

We also have the option to move our capital, but i think that might be too costly on a small map where we have few core cities. The advantage that comes with this however is that we can build the FP in the colossus city, reducing corruption there and greatly increasing its potential strength with the science wonders we are gonna build later.

This all is not very important yet though, we just need to decide on the city placement with a dotmap for now. Of course, this must be subject to change later as we discover bonus lands beneath the jungle.

I think the chinese expansion will not be very dangerous since there is enough space left for them in the north. Only when they are running out of space, they will move trough our blockade to settle in the jungle.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Just made a quick little dotmap.

So something like this i guess with obviously the FP in the middle.

If we do this, the river in the northwest has very low value for us and we can let the chinese have it for a while. Cities there will be so corrupt that it will be ICS land.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

another option would be this with the FP at red dot.
This would make better use of the rivers available. It will however be harder to conquer this ground from the chinese.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If you guys think either of this dotmaps is ok, you note that the cities are the same in both pictures only the FP location is different. I think we should start by building the one closest to the chinese there now first. second one to close of the area, depending on which map we choose.

(i made them in 20 seconds, so look carefully to improve it)

We should for now not place cities closer to our capital than the one we are going to build the FP in. Lets keep the hand-build option open if possible. This does mean we will have to wait before connecting the dyes if the dyes city is not gonna be the FP (unless we temporarily use a colony)

 

[grahamiam]

the dot SW of the warrior I would move NE 1T. still coastal, but has more potential food via jungle chops. it's also easy to defend due to the hill.

FP dot will only be able to be made via an MGL. imho, if we're going to put the FP up there, might as well put it along the river and near the dyes so we gain more gpt (white dot N of dyes). edit: maybe even slide it SE by 1 tile so it has even more river tiles to work...

 

[Wotan]

Both dot maps are OK. But here are still some fogged out areas especially in the NE. That could alter at least the placements of the closest locations. Also I have not really looked close at the specific dot placements but it do look OK.

But: What about ICS it and pop rush Libraries in them? We could cram in about 15 locations there? A lot of scientist specialists. No idea if it anything to consider though? Just a thought without too much depth.

The FP could go in Chinese of Greek territory when we eventually get a leader and be positioned in a really strong site?

Is the suggested centre dot really on the river?

EDIT: War? Yes! ASAP, we want the continent to ourselves. Start with war on China and get Greece in on our side. I am OK with early war with Archers. But that would require a somewhat different approach in some locations, we need to start building Barracks in a few locations to produce military units.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Oh ya, there is one thing i forgot to think about. The cities around the FP should be further from the FP (or same distance) as Philly is from the capital. Else, philly will move down in the corruption ladder and the colossus will lose power (as well as possible science wonders we are gonna build)

Of course, that is not an issue if we use the palace jump and build the FP in philly.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Both dot maps are OK. But here are still some fogged out areas especially in the NE. That could alter at least the placements of the closest locations. Also I have not really looked close at the specific dot placements but it do look OK.

But: What about ICS it and pop rush Libraries in them? We could cram in about 15 locations there? A lot of scientist specialists. No idea if it anything to consider though? Just a thought without too much depth.

The FP could go in Chinese of Greek territory when we eventually get a leader and be positioned in a really strong site?

Is the suggested centre dot really on the river?

It is an option to build the FP in chinese greek territory yes, this will of course go better with the intention of doing it with a leader.

Wherever we build the FP, all area's where we are not building it should be ICSed. Libraries in ICS land is useless, they do not enhance the science from scientists.

Yes, that site is on the river, i checked it.



Disregaring the handbuild option we come to the choise between:

-ICSing this ground for scientists, meanwhile conquering china/greece, finally rushing FP there with a leader.

-Moving the palace to the dotmap as drawn with the FP in philly

-Making a complete new dotmap with bigger distances between the FP and surrounding cities and waiting for a leader to build the FP.

 

[Wotan]

Oh ya, there is one thing i forgot to think about. The cities around the FP should be further from the FP (or same distance) as Philly is from the capital. Else, philly will move down in the corruption ladder and the colossus will lose power (as well as possible science wonders we are gonna build)

Of course, that is not an issue if we use the palace jump and build the FP in philly.

Is that still the case in C3C? I must admit I have not really learnt how corruption works around the FP in C3C.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Is that still the case in C3C? I must admit I have not really learnt how corruption works around the FP in C3C.

I must also admit i am not entirely sure, someone who is sure or willing to find out for sure ?

Edit: In fact, IIRC the rank corruption is decided only on distance to the capital. This would make the dotmap ok and it would rule out the option to make a second core in china/greek land.

 

[Wotan]

Libraries in ICS land is useless, they do not enhance the science from scientists.

Yes, sorry that was still in my text. I edited it but forgot to take that out from it when I realised it was not culture we were looking for but beakers...

Disregaring the handbuild option we come to the choise between:

-ICSing this ground for scientists, meanwhile conquering china/greece, finally rushing FP there with a leader.

-Moving the palace to the dotmap as drawn with the FP in philly

-Making a complete new dotmap with bigger distances between the FP and surrounding cities and waiting for a leader to build the FP.

I vote for option 1. The jungles will require so much work I believe we are better off looking for a FP site in the north.

EDIT: From the Academy:
The Forbidden Palace acts as a second Palace for distance corruption calculations, but not for rank calculations. The Forbidden Palace itself will have low corruption, but if there are many cities closer to the Palace than the Forbidden Palace, the cities around the Forbidden Palace will have high rank corruption. However, even though it doesn't provide a new set of city ranks, the Forbidden Palace reduces rank corruption throughout the empire by increasing the optimal number of cities.

 

[grahamiam]

in C3C, corruption has 2 components, distance and rank. the FP only effect distance corruption (ie, closest palace is used to calc distance corruption). Rank corruption remains the same, so I don't see how the FP can effect Philly unless I'm missing something.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Ok, so my edit is confirmed.

Gman is right, Philly will not be harmed.

The second core as drawn in the first picture is possible, but we cannot ICS ground that is closer than the furthest city from the second core.

The second picture is ruled out because this leaves 2 cities between our cores who will increase the rank corruption for the second core but are not close enough to any palace to be good themselves.

Option 1 is ruled out as the rank corruption for a core there would be too huge.


I think i am leaning towards a palace jump then.

 

[grahamiam]

FP reduces the city corruption by 70% and in C3C, a town maxes out at 90% corruption. So, if the FP is really far away from the Palace, we can expect it to have 70%30% corruption. Corruption is reduced by 10% for a courthouse and another 10% for a police station.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

FP reduces the city corruption by 70% and in C3C, a town maxes out at 90% corruption. So, if the FP is really far away from the Palace, we can expect it to have 70% corruption. Corruption is reduced by 10% for a courthouse and another 10% for a police station.

reduced by 70% means it becomes 30 right?
a courthouse reduces the cap to 80, but that is not important.

If we build the FP there, the distance factor will be 0.
The rank factor will provide a big corruption, but i estimate not bigger than 75%. If it is bigger than 75%, a courthouse should reduce it to 75%. The FP then will reduce the corruption to the minimum of 5%.

 

[Wotan]

Ok, so my edit is confirmed. That would rule out option 1.
I think i am leaning towards a palace jump then.

No, distance rank is determind as distance to closest palace, not only to capital. And the FP itself will always have low corruption but cities closer to the FP than to the capital will affect distance rank for cities around the capital so putting the FP in the jungle area would be next to impossible since it would require us to put cities at 5+ distance to keep corruption intact at a low level around Washington.

The ICS area would be outside the distance of all important cities around Washington and as long as we keep locations at 5+ in distance from FP everything should be OK.