SGOTM8 - Wacken

[Xevious]

I've been reading through all the day's posts and my head now hurts too much to play tonight. I have the day off (sort of) tomorrow, so I will tackle this in the morning when I'm in a better state of mind.

The way you guys are posting, I'll have much more info in the morning anyway.

 

[grahamiam]

ok, here are the calc's. I have not figured out 100% how C3C rounds down, so there will be errors. Actually, I seem to have more errors in the "without FP" scenario than with. However, this does seem to get me very close to what happens in the game (within 1 shield of waste, anyways. gold was not checked)

Ok, first list assumes no FP, no courts, and Republic:
Corruption/WLTDK Waste/City "Name"
3.27% 2.56% Washington
14.04% 12.62% Chicago
22.30% 20.17% New York
25.57% 22.73% Philadelphia
28.84% 25.29% Atlanta
32.11% 27.85% Seattle
37.88% 32.90% Boston
51.14% 45.46% Red
54.41% 48.02% Yellow
65.18% 58.08% Pink
68.45% 60.63% Green
79.22% 70.69% Crimson
82.48% 73.25% Blue
90.00% 80.81% Gold

Now, we build the FP on the Pink Dot, and we have the following (all other things being equal)
Corruption/WLTDK Waste/City "Name"
2.31% 1.93% Washington
12.11% 11.36% Chicago
19.42% 18.29% New York
21.73% 20.21% Philadelphia
24.03% 22.14% Atlanta
26.34% 24.07% Seattle
31.15% 28.50% Boston
28.45% 25.43% Red
30.76% 27.36% Yellow
23.07% 19.29% Pink (FP town)
32.87% 28.72% Green
35.18% 30.64% Crimson
37.49% 32.57% Blue
42.30% 37.00% Gold

Huge difference in those towns. It really makes a difference, keeping the rank # down while slashing the distance via the FP. Thats a lot of good towns on a small map, which should be very helpful later on Now, we just have to figure out how to build the sucker in a 65% corrupt town. Building/Chopping a court would help get it down to around 42%, at which point building it by hand becomes feasible.

Note: I built a scenario to check the above numbers. All seems well and, as mentioned initially, it seems to err on the conservative side but only by a maximum of 1 shield. It may have to do with the fact that, in the scenario, all towns were built on 4000BC.

Sorry for the number crunch, but sometimes I can't help myself Last time I brought this SS out was the 1st SG I was ever in (Hooray4, Russian Roulette), and I thought gozpel was going to wring my neck Ah well, it helps reinforce my memory of how corruption works in C3C (which I can then forget in about 100 days). I promise not to bring it out again

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Thank you Grahamiam. It looks even a bit better than i had expected.

So i suggest we settle in order:
Gold
Crimson
Pink
Bleu
*Wait until FP is completed*
Green+yellow+Red

By delaying these 3 cities, Pink will be lower than the 65% you calculated, probably in the high 50's. However, you probably calculated as connected by roads wich it might not be for quite a while to come.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Do you mean for the duration of the game or just during Despotism? I must admit that I havent played above regent, so it's possible that this is just the level of corruption at higher difficulty levels.

It was an estimate. Seeing Gman's numbers, i estimated the corruption a little too high. The important factors i include in that estimation are the difficulty level and the map size who both decrease the OCN. (OCN is a key number used in corruption calculations)

 

[Wotan]

OK, we have a plan, thank you Grahamiam! But, maybe we should move Crimson one tile NW? And move Blue one tile SE?

Also this will require NY and Atlanta to churn out quite a few Workers to cope with all jungle clearing.

Do we prepare for war at the same time?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

But, maybe we should move Crimson one tile NW?

Yes.

And move Blue one tile SE?

Not sure, maybe we should decide the exact positions in that area after exploring more there.

Also this will require NY and Atlanta to churn out quite a few Workers to cope with all jungle clearing.

Yes, both cities must have a granary.

Do we prepare for war at the same time?

Second priority, priority subject to change depending on Chinese hostillity. But always keep the option open and be ready to make an army.


All together i'd say the capital makes 1 or 2 workers after this next settler. Then, the settlers needed to fill the area.
The other 2 5fpt cities build their granaries now, with lots of help from forest cuts.
The remaining cities finish their workers in production and maybe 1 more depending on where they are now. Then, in 10-15 turns from now or so, Some could build a barracks and produce vet warriors and maybe archers or horses.

Finally we need to decide on our growth plan more precisely i think. At some point we will have 15 cities at size 6 and they need to grow to size 12. Growing just by themselves without granary takes ages. We will do worker joins from our 5fpt cities, but feeding 12 cities with just 3 of them will still take a long time. I do think we want some extra granaries.

The question is then when and where to build those. Initially i thought about our cities with fish and oisters, but since those will also need a harbor and aquaduct, that would be too much to build there. Therefore, i suggest we build granaries in our river cities and give them some extra irrigated tiles when we are republic to bring them also to 5fpt. Unfortunately, this is only gonna be the green dot. As the pink one will be building FP. The green dot i think should be 4th worker factory. If we have the opportunity, i would like 1 or 2 more granaries in other cities as well. This should be cities that can do their job without a harbor for a while.

All together, i think there will not be much space for militairy as we will need harbors, granaries, workers, aquaducts, and some culture. Therefore i think hand building is the way to go and just have enough military to keep our empire safe.

With these many things to build, i also suggest to stay away from temples for now. We will need libraries anyway and those will provide all the culture we need.

 

[Wotan]

All together i'd say the capital makes 1 or 2 workers after this next settler. Then, the settlers needed to fill the area..

I would rather we build at least 4 Settler, for our primary dots, before making Workers in Washington. 2 Workers are 4 turns delay for Settlers and I have a nagging suspicion the Chinese and Greeks will not allow us to take the area without a "fight". Both of them will move to contol Dyes. Better to have those 4 turns at our disposal than being beaten by a turn or two by an AI Settler.

The other 2 5fpt cities build their granaries now, with lots of help from forest cuts.
The remaining cities finish their workers in production and maybe 1 more depending on where they are now. Then, in 10-15 turns from now or so, Some could build a barracks and produce vet warriors and maybe archers or horses.

Yes!

Finally we need to decide on our growth plan more precisely i think. At some point we will have 15 cities at size 6 and they need to grow to size 12. Growing just by themselves without granary takes ages. We will do worker joins from our 5fpt cities, but feeding 12 cities with just 3 of them will still take a long time. I do think we want some extra granaries..

Joining a worker just as the location is about to grow from size 6 to 7 will save all food. So be sure to have Workers ready to join when they are about to grow.

All together, i think there will not be much space for militairy as we will need harbors, granaries, workers, aquaducts, and some culture. Therefore i think hand building is the way to go and just have enough military to keep our empire safe..

Not sure about this but we are trying to do a lot of things ATM and something has to go. OTOH early war is often less expensive since we will basically fight fewer enemy units.

With these many things to build, i also suggest to stay away from temples for now. We will need libraries anyway and those will provide all the culture we need.

Yes

EDIT: A colony (and Warrior to protect it) in a Gems tile is important. We need the lux! I would recommend starting to road through the mountains.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I would rather we build at least 4 Settler, for our primary dots, before making Workers in Washington. 2 Workers are 4 turns delay for Settlers and I have a nagging suspicion the Chinese and Greeks will not allow us to take the area without a "fight". Both of them will move to contol Dyes. Better to have those 4 turns at our disposal than being beaten by a turn or two by an AI Settler..

Indeed, i just thought about correcting that. We have 1 settler moving north now, we need to build 4 cities, then wait for the FP. Therefore i think we should now build 3 more settlers and settle those 4 cities. Then we can see when we will build those last 3.

Joining a worker just as the location is about to grow from size 6 to 7 will save all food. So be sure to have Workers ready to join when they are about to grow.

I think we must also skim workers at size 6 in every city.

EDIT: A colony (and Warrior to protect it) in a Gems tile is important. We need the lux! I would recommend starting to road through the mountains.

Certainly
And we should also soon start building a road to the northern jungle. There must be a road for the many workers we are gonna send there, and a road will also help reduce corruption in the FP city. Finally of course, it will connect a luxury there.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The three 5fpt cities will have to make a granary and workers.

Philly will need an aquaduct right after the colossus as well as a harbor and a library. All these buildings are needed to grow the city to size 12 asap and make the maximum use of the colossus. Maybe a granary would also be needed, depending if we have enough workers available to join the city.

Chicago is rather short on ground, it will have 4 or 5 non mountain land tiles available. I think if possible (if we have map making) it should build a harbor before aquaduct. With 160 shields to produce before size 6, it should start a the harbor as soon as map making is obtained.

For Seattle, it exactly is the same as chicago.

That leaves Boston probably as the best city to become unit factory. This city has slightly more ground available(6 + 2maybe to borrow from Philly after colossus) and could build its harbor after the aquaduct. We could start a barracks now in the next turnset and have it produce vet units until it is size 4.5 and starts to build an aquaduct.

Producing units from other cities will delay their growth since growth needs both a harbor and an aquaduct. The second core will not be opperational before 50 turns from now. So then we have only 1 unit factory for the while to come. This is enough to ensure our safety, but not to conquer anything.


The other option would be to delay the harbors and aquaducts for a while and build units from multiple cities. This comes at the cost of growth. This price could be repayed if we get an early leader enabling us to build the FP significantly faster than handbuilding it, but this is a gamble and i think the chances for that leader are much too slim to take this gamble.

I am not really worried about our opponents being stronger when we attack them later. We expect this game to last trough the industrial ages. Untill then, we have all the time we want to take on those neighbours. And with 14 strong cities, noone will stand in our way anyway. The only reason to hurry the conquest would be to get those ICS scientists earlier, but i don't think that outwieghts the power we are to build in our 14 core cities with proper growth. Also, if we go to war early and conquer some lands, we have 2 area's to settle at once and we will not have the settlers available for the ICSing anyway. If we first build our core and then capture, we can bring out the settlers for some ICS as soon as we capture it.

Little Edit on Seattle and Chicago:
They got 9 tiles and one lake to share between the 2 of them. If we give 6 tiles to one of them and 4 to the other, it would be possible to build some units from the one with 6 tiles as well and build the harbor after the aquaduct. Chicago has lower corruption, Seattle has acces to more land (6 vs 5+lake) and more forests to cut for a quicky barracks.
I think i'd' use Seattle for units. Chicago may be better suited to build even a granary and get more out if it's fish. After growing, chicago will be a very good production city with its low corruption and the fish providing food to use the mountain tiles. Before growing it is rather poor though.

So that would make 2 unit factories.

 

[grahamiam]

ok, just a quick review so I have this straight for the next 30 turns.

NY, Atlanta, Washington: worker factories (need granaries now, then spam workers). Cities will eventually need harbors and Lib's.

Boston, Seattle: unit factories (need rax) Note: these towns will gain spt from a cultural expansion (Boston gets bg, forest, and clams; Seattle gets mountain goats). Towns will eventually need 'ducts, harbors, and Lib's.

Philly: Colossus, 'duct, harbor, Lib

Chicago: granary (not sure why as we will be joining workers anyways), Lib, 'duct, harbor

 

[Wotan]

Washington to produce 3 more settlers before switching to Workers.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The granary in chicago is optional.

I see it as a decent option though because we will have way too many cities that want worker joins compared to the workers we will produce. Also will we keep needing a lot of workers for quite a while to come. We will be cutting the jungle, then we working the new core, then we will irrigate the conquered ground for ICS and when all that is done, we will need to railroad our entire empire. Therefore, even though we are to have several worker factories, i expect not very many of them end up joining our cities.
Therefore, i'd like some more granaries.

The FP has an extremely high priority. The turn the FP is ready, we will have a whole new core available. Every turn we get the FP faster means dozens of commerce and shields. Therefore, we can invest maximally in getting the FP asap. This means we should if possible cash rush a courthouse before starting the build. Then, we should join a good number of workers in the city (as many as we can get improved tiles to work for the city) possibly even like 6 worker joins just for than 1 city.
If we cannot find the cash to rushbould the courthouse, i doubt the CH will be worth it. This should be calculated first.

After republic i think we should research construction as soon as we can. If math is for trade already by then, maybe imeadiately after republic, else first literature and then construction. Everything else i expect we can trade.

Our goal during the middle ages and Industrial should IMO be to gain GPT from the AI to pay for our expenses, keep our science at 100%, and keep the world peacefull to increase the chance that the AI will research something usefull for us. I think we should not incite wars. If we have both our cores operational, we should have 4 turn research up to the early industrial ages. Scientists and captured ground should keep it at 4 for the later industrial ages. (this is an estimate because i do not know the exact science costs at a small map)

 

[Xevious]

First off, here's the SAVE.

1750BC(0) Everything looks good as far as I can tell.

Barb horse kills Chinese warrior next to dyes.

1725BC(1) Warrior to mountain to scout for settler. Settler NE, heading for gold dot. Seattle warrior to mountain. After the workers finish, will start granary in NY, barracks in Seattle. Workers will chop forest around NY to help with granary. Have to bump lux to 30% for NY and Boston.

2 barb horses appear SE of seattle warrior.

1700BC(2) Boston:warrior->warrior. Chicago:worker->warrior. Fortify warrior SE of Seattle. Move Boston warrior toward Seattle, then realize Philly warrior is able to move closer, so move it. Boston warrior will go to Philly next turn for mp duty. China has Writing now, so look to see what I can get from Greece. They won't even give us Warrior code for it. Last turn I could have gotten Iron from Greece for it (I checked). With any luck, China will go for Map Making next since there is lots of visible land reachable only by boat.

Barb horse in jungle moves E. Seattle warrior defeats both horse attacks becoming vet (4/4).

1675BC(3) After road/mine BG by Seattle, will chop both grass forests towards barracks.

1650BC(4) Washington:settler->settler.

1625BC(5) Warrior scouting ahead of settler finds barb horse camp in jungle N,NW of dyes. Barb horse is east of dyes and settler is on hill SW of dyes. Can't move settler north in case camp produces a unit next turn, so move NW to get a better view of coast. Move vet warrior toward SE barb camp, plan to park next to it. Another warrior is now SE of Seattle.

Barb horse moves to N of dyes.

1600BC(6) Seattle:worker->barracks. Vet warrior next to mountain camp, only has a warrior in it. We might be safe to take it out, but it might be better to leave it there so we don't have another camp pop up in the jungles where we don't want it. Warrior attacks jungle camp and loses, doing one point of damage. Have to retreat settler to hill with other warrior. Chopping forests to hurry NY granary, and we'll need some more warriors out of NY after that. Drop sci->30%, COL due next turn. Greece has Writing, China has a worker, but we can't afford it.

1575BC(7) COL->Philosophy@70%(due in 9). Trade COL for Iron, Wheel, WC and 48g from China. Just to tease us, horses are just across the straits from Philly. China has horses, and the only visible iron is west of the double wines. Greece will undoubtedly grab that soon, meaning hoplites are in our near future. Boston:warrior->barracks. Fortify warrior by SE camp. I have workers cutting or about to cut all the forest in our area, except for the one plains forest we need in Washington.

1550BC(8) Washington:settler->settler. Now have a reg and a vet warrior next to SE barb camp. There are three settlers heading north, but only one warrior out there to protect them. I may not be able to get them to the far north dots as planned. This will probably need to be discussed before the next turn set. In fact, I may have to settle the purple dot first just to get rid of the barb camp.

Jungle warrior survives horse and is vet (2/4). Jungle camp has 2 horses now.

1525BC(9) Chicago:warrior->archer. With chop, this will finish quickly. Not sure if archer or spear is better, intention is to send up to jungle with settlers. Jungle warrior fortifies. Settler to dyes, if warrior survives another horse, settler can go north of dyes and settle. China has grabbed the double dyes.

Jungle horse went east. Barb horse in SE camp now.

1500BC(10) Jungle warrior(3/4) moves NE. Settler follows. Another settler moves SW,S of jungle camp. No BG under the 2 southern grass forests. Lux to 40% for NY. Should have moved a warrior into NY instead of sending it N to help settlers.

Thoughts:

1) Building Archer in Chicago, could change to spear, either one may be too late to help out up north anyway, so could change to a building. Forest will chop next turn for Chicago, so make sure if you change it, it's something that is more than 10 shields.

2) NY just grew. It can work 3 FP and olives for growth in 4, granary in 7(6 actually), or 2 FP, olives and irr plains for growth in 5, granary in 5. There really isn't any good way to get granary before growth as it will still take 4 turns for the next growth anyway.

3) Baracks is almost done in Seattle due to 2 chops. I've got a worker ready to start road to gems. It will take 2 units to guard the southern mountains from barbs, even AFTER Seattle expands.

4) Philosophy is due in 6 turns. If we can get some more MPs we can keep science up, otherwise as the cities get bigger we're going to need more lux tax. Getting gems connected will help alot, but getting the dyes sooner will also be a big help. I think since there are tow settlers close to dyes, we should settle the dyes sooner than planned. This will also disperse the barb camp. Assuming the barb survives the next horse attack, we might be able to risk that settler continuing north to gold dot and having the other settler move unaccompanied to the dyes spot. Risky, but the camp just built a horse last turn. Should be safe for a few more turns.

5) We are up COL on Greece, and they have Myst, but I think it would be better to wait and see if they get another tech before trading COL to them.

I'm also adding pictures of the world with dots from the previous map, and I've moved crimson 1 NW as suggested, and blue 1 SE but that may need discussion after we uncover more of that area.

 

[Wotan]

Got it! Looks good, a bit of hide and seek needed with Barbs in the North. Hopefully I can avoid any disasters...

 

[dmanakho]

Looks good. It also looks like we've got to have a war before knights come to the picture.
China has sources of horses near Shangai... We've got to grab that and then once we have horses we can try to build enough to get control of that iron up north.
So probably about the time to start building packs of archers with some spear defense and perhaps few catapults.

 

[Xevious]

As far as roading to the cities up north, I was planning the mountain the worker is on, then red dot, BG, hill east of BG, dyes.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

So we have no resources...

I don't like to use catapults here. They are not worth it. Archers must do. Longbows can do if we won't get an army in time.
I don't think we are in very much of a hurry. Capturing horses now but not Iron only gives us horsemen. We don't want to use horsemen against the hoplites and the like. I think we should fight them with longbows.

 

[Wotan]

OK, guys. I have already played my turns. It was pretty straight forward so I saw no reason to wait for an extended discussion.

Turn log

0 – 1500BC
Nothing

IBT: Barb.Horse SE attack and is killed without HP loss.

1 – 1475BC
San Francisco founded, FP started.

IBT: One of the two Barb.Horsemen next to SF attack and is killed. The other move north.

2 – 1450BC
Washington builds Settler, Worker started.
Chicago builds Archer, Barracks started.

Shaved another turn off Philo, ready in 2 turns.

3 – 1425BC
Chicago builds Archer, Barracks started.

Attacked and dispersed the Barb.Camp in SE.
China has CoL now so I trade CoL for Mysticism from Greece.

4 – 1400BC
Washington builds Worker, Worker started.

Philosophy researched, unfortunately we do not gain any free tech so I start researching Literacy.

IBT: Barb. Warrior attack but is killed.

5 – 1375BC
Nothing major

6 – 1350BC
Washington builds Worker, Worker started.
New York builds Granary, Worker started.
Miami founded, Warrior started.

7 – 1325BC
Seattle builds Barracks, Archer started.

Dispersed a Barb.Camp.

IBT: A Horseman ransacked San Francisco and took 17 gold.

8 – 1300BC
Washington builds Worker, Worker started.

China has MM!

IBT: China starts building Pyramids.

9 – 1275BC
New York builds Worker, Worker started.
IBT: Barb NW New York attack our Warrior next to it. Killed wo HP loss to us.
Chinese starts building Colossus.

10 – 1250BC
Washington builds Worker, Worker started.

Houston founded, Warrior started.

After action report:
Chinese Settler NE Miami, we need to start disrupting it so it does not reach the area S of San Francisco.

We have 12 Worker now. Washington is building one every two turns and New York one every three turns.

Literature in 2 turns.

Colossus built in 10 turns. We could shave one turn off this if the next shield gained is not lost to corruption. If it is possible it need to be joined in 4 turns time, if I have counted the shields missing in Philly there are currently 59 left to go, so 6 shields for another 4 turns and then 7 shields for 5 turns. To be certain about it I would join another worker in three turns time. I sent the Worker just built in W. north but it will make it back to Philly in time if we want it to.

Gems are connected, Dyes will be next turn so New York will not Riot!!!

Left the Warrior next to the Barb.Camp without moving it north this turn just so you do not miss it.

Someone beat us to Philosophy…

Last of the current batch of Settler is in position to found a city.

What next? China has MM. Do we want a government?

Will reopen the game and post a map, forgot about taking a screen dump...

EDIT: There are Horses on the island West of Greece. Hopefully they will have colonised that island by the time we go to war against them as would hopefully China. Then we would try to get cities on far away shores in peace deals. That might work pretty well... So maybe we should not kill them off but take them piecemeal...

To keep our area free from any new Brabarians we should keep a warrior on the east coast right where it is and one on the mountain road, als where it is right now. As well as the two in the SE. That way we will be free from any new Barbarians...

 

[grahamiam]

good thing riders require iron too, or this could get ugly. hope the settlers make it looks like they did!

edit: we need units in those northern cities ASAP or they're going to become Kung Po

 

[Wotan]

hope the settlers make it looks like they did!

Yes, but there was some zig zaging involved...

The funniest part of my turns was actually counting how to optimize the use of 4 Workers to road and connect Dyes.

I was looking at the map I posted above and I think we can place another location on the eastern coast 2 tiles south of Houston. It is distance 13 from W. SF is distance 13.5. So FP build would not be disrupted since corruption rank would put SF before the newer city.