Shakespeares Theater and Democracy

Hoffmann

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In all the discussions I have read about wonders and Shakespeares Theater (ST), there is no mention of the fact that you can have 100-150 bombers, AEGIS cruisers, howitzers, tanks and mechanized infantry out there without any risk of revolts in a democracy. All it takes is to build ST in a Super Production City, i.e. you have several mountains with mines, possibly iron, railroads all over, factory, hydroplant, manufacturing plant, etc. Build the city at a tile next to an ocean, and you have the possibility of an awesome navy. Have other super production cities nearby, so that you can move units into your ST city in one term and change the city ownership instantly to avoid riots. Meanwhile, you enjoy the high efficiency of a Democracy. In the early stages of a democracy, it can be useful to be able to place units away from cities in strategical positions for conquest, city building, defence, keeping the enemy from building at your coastlines, etc. It is also nice to have some navy to keep your most profitable trade lines open. Is this fact so obvious, that no one thought of mentioning it, or has it been overlooked by the community altogether?

All mention I have seen of ST is to place it in a Super Science City (SST), which might also have some advantages - what are they by the way?

Is it possible to build ST in CIV III, IV, and V and have the same advantages?
 
I think the most players are aware of using ST the way you described but I think (at least for me) if I play conquest I can win early enough (before discovery of Democracy) and won't need it.

ST in a SSC is used to grow the city with WLTP to it's max size (>20) and get a giant science boost. And ST is also used for those triremes or caravels who might give some unhappiness elsewhere (other cities)=the trick you described but only on a small scale.

I don't know if there is ST in the other civ versions (I have IV but haven't played it much yet).
 
Ordinarily, a player's SSC will be much larger than all his other cities. The contentment improvements can make about half of a size 20 city content; you need luxuries to keep order in such a city. Building Shake's will eliminate this need, so, if most of your cities are small, you can run a reduced (or 0) luxury rate and still keep order in your SSC (and save the maintenance of city improvements).

Also, if a player opens with the Monarchy (or Republic)->Trade->Monotheism tech route, Medicine is easily available (and usually can be traded for another tech as well), so researching it and building Shake's is a quicker, more versatile, longer lasting, solution than researching construction and building a colosseum and temple.

Then there's the fact that building Shakespeare's Theater for a super production city is a much more future oriented move than putting it in the SSC. For most of the game, Bach's can easily handle the few units that you'll want outside your cities in a Democracy. By the late game, if you want to field an army, you can rehome units for 1-2 per city (more if the city is maxed out and no longer needs to celebrate) or build size 2 cities that maximize production and which Bach's can make perfectly content no matter how many units they send out. Sure, Shakespeare's in an SPC would be very nice, but you can do a lot with 300 shields in the early game, and building something that won't be useful for 100 turns isn't a good use of resources, particularly if you have an SSC that can make use of the Theater right now.

Check the stories and tales forum for the deity plus 2 succession game; they used your strategy, albeit in a landlocked city.
 
i like longer games, modern wars, democracy, so i let AIs to develop and always use ST in this case for my swarm of aegis cruisers
 
In all the discussions I have read about wonders and Shakespeares Theater (ST), there is no mention of the fact that you can have ...
As others have pointed out, this has been known and mentioned numerous times in the forum. Perhaps you ought to do more reading ;)

Prof. Garfield, as usual, has a very good commentary on the issue. What I can add is:

1. for minor warfare Bach is sufficient; for major warfare it is worthwhile to switch to fundy, reduce your enemies down to a manageable size, and switch back to Democracy.

2. One problem of rehoming everything to one city is that it reduces your agility. In a large world you will be spending a lot of time and effort sending those units to the front which is likely far away from your Super Production City.
 
It is a nice feature to use Shake's to keep a SSC growing without revolt under a democracy.

I guess my ten yrs of CIV has made me a Late Conquest pursuer. When I searched for "strategies and civilization", I recently stumbled upon CFC, Apolyton and the concept of Early Conquest. This immediately caught my interest, because it is the opposite of what I have been doing!

In a late conquest, you aim for a high score and give your opponents the final blow late in the game, mainly aimed at your nearest neighbors. It requires a serious effort on the part of the AI to withstand the combined forces of 100+ units, even just a task force of 10-20 howitzers that don't care if they are left out of a city on a railroaded continent where you can move them fast. On islands I use airports an plan ahead of time. When a particular neighbor starts acting up, demanding tributes, if an alliance is broken, etc, I start shipping off the units. The "go" function is useful when you have to repeat a move from a city in one end of the continent to a city in the other - You do have to answer "yes" to "continue moving unit," sometimes more than once. Generally it doesn't seem to be a problem moving the units around, but I only played on normal size maps.

Did I forget to mention that you can of course also use Bach's, Womens Suffrage and police stations to have units out there from the other cities as well? Anyway I soon noticed that if I let a howitzer attack a city and used up it's turns outside the city, often the home city started rioting. But then Shake's solved the problem for me.

Earlier in the game, the Shake's city is useful for building wonders, because it's accumulating lots of shields, engineers/settlers working mines on the hills around it and so on. I agree of course that for an Early Conquest as demonstrated by Peaster, there is no real use of Shake's, so it would be a waste of shields to build it. Even if you somehow made a "democracy version" of EC including Shake's, it would be difficult to move the units out to the far away places, which would be the first priority in an EC scenario. You may look at it this way - Which requires the most effort:
- To heal up several cities simultaneously, build the units and transport them to the scene from different cities nearby?
- To take an overwhelming force of already made units and move them from scene to scene along railroads on the map?

One feature that is nice late in the game is, that you can let the Shake's city own the high tech units that require many shields, for instance stealth bombers. You don't easily accumulate a force of stealth bombers from newly healed cities far away from your home land. To "heal" a city would imply building a solar plant or a recycling center, a manufacturing plant and a mass transit plus infrastructure for maintaining a large amount of citizens. If you are able to cluster several high production cities nearby you Shake's city, you can have a pretty high output rate of high tech units. Then you move them where the action is!

It's nice to see another demo-shake's CIV II player, elmenhorster!

By the way, I really shouldn't have called Shakespeares Theater "ST" because it's already been used for Sun Tzun's War Academy. Let's call it Shake's. I'll try to get more reading done, and thanks for the references! I'd like to correct one mistake in my original posting at the start of this thread - When I wrote "mountains" I meant "hills," but you probably figured that already.

:)
 
In a late conquest, you aim for a high score and give your opponents the final blow late in the game, ...
If your goal is simply high score, a more effective strategy is to eliminate your aggressive rivals early and cut your other rivals down to trading-partner-size soon after and then simply grow. Of course, your goal may be a late conquest just for the fun of it; it is after all a game.

What I, and many others, have found far more useful than reading is joining the GOTM games and learning from the experience of others. GOTM113 has just recently started. It is a special one with special rules which forces a late game play though emphasis is on tech not conquest.
 
Well, If you eliminate all your competitors, the game stops... If you do it early, it's Early Conquest! I guess that after all, "Late Conquest" covers my own inability to control the game efficiently. Game Of The Month sounds like the way to go!

By the way, I thought that "Early Landing" was synonymous with "Early Conquest," but just discovered Solo's guide to landing a space ship early. Apparently somebody has done it in "16 AD," probably meaning 1, 60, or 160 AD or so. Just wondering if anybody did a BC landing or at least a 1 AD landing at Deity level?

I have hopelessly wandered around several sites to get a good link to DaveV's ICS strategy guide, including the "Great Library," but somehow it just doesn't work for me. Can anybody help me out?
 
Game Of The Month sounds like the way to go!
Hope to see you there soon.
By the way, I thought that "Early Landing" was synonymous with "Early Conquest," but just discovered Solo's guide to landing a space ship early. Apparently somebody has done it in "16 AD," probably meaning 1, 60, or 160 AD or so.
It means 16AD. As soon as you launch a space ship turns go in one year increments even before 1850 when they otherwise would not.
Just wondering if anybody did a BC landing or at least a 1 AD landing at Deity level?
The game does not allow building space ship parts in BC even if you have all the techs. The earliest launch date is thus 1AD.
 
Regarding your quest for the Great Library... it's kind of in transition while Apolyton rebuilds its site.. I have been unable to get any schedule by posting so I assume they are busy working on it.. The GL links are "broken" until whenever they get the links restored. As you can tell by logging on there they are sort of making Civ 1,2 and 3 "back seat" and the site focuses on Civ 4 and the upcoming release of Civ 5. The old links on angelfire have been abandoned and the site is not there anymore.. I guess folk like me who get a great kick out of playing and analysing those (these?) old games are going to have to look harder for all that great info that has been put together over the years.
 
I actually managed to obtain DaveV's ICS guide, the Early Landing guide, and Peasters Early Conquest guide through links provided by helpful people here at CFC. I wonder if these and other documents has any use in the newer versions of Civ, say IV and V?
 
I don't believe they have any direct application whatsoever.. when they came out with Civ 3 I believe they plugged most of the functions that made those old documents as effective as they were.. of course by seeing their methods for finding and testing those strategies I suppose you could apply them to 3, 4 and 5 when it comes out.. Personally I've played 3 and 4 and am "meh" about them.. I still love Civ 2 though for some crazy reason.. LOL I still like Alpha Centauri too.. lol.. it's kind of half way between civ2 and civ3
 
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