Shakespeare's Theater - SCC or Production city?

[west232321]

In my current game, I have one city that has 3 coal specials in its radius, and so can potentially produce *very* many shields. I am thinking of building Shakespeare's Theater in this city so I can use it to support military units when I switch to democracy. However, many guides I have read have advised to build the Theater in the SCC, to prevent unhappy citizens from ruining research output.

Should I build the Theater in the 3-coal Production city or the SCC?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

You are obviously not playing OCC where Shakespeare is essential. My answer is build it in the high production city. The Science city can manage without Shakespeare with a little extra cost.

However, if you find yourself conducting a big war in democracy requiring a lot of units, you should consider switching (temporarily perhaps) to Fundamentalism or Communism.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

In general I'd agree with Ali's comments. If constructed correctly, your SSC will likely have enough trade and trade-improvements to be more than stable at the luxury levels where the rest of your cities are stable. The one area where it may become an isssue is in the process of growing your city to it's max potential. Shakespeare makes it much easier to sustain celebrations by eliminating the unhappy citizens. However, with a few well-placed improvements and wonders, you can often overcome this while growing.

On the other hand you can gain the benefits of having Shakespeare in your production city over a longer period of time. Your production city will have less base trade, so it will need help growing and remaining happy even without units in the field. Then once it has grown, you can keep the city content and home your field units there.

The one caveat I would add, is to make sure you have good enough terrrain to grow the production city. Do you have enough food to sustain a large enough population to get the maximum potential from the city? Do you have sufficient engineering support to improve the terrain (Mines, RR, irrigation for food)? Do you think you will be able to get enough luxuries to get celebration growth so it can quickly reach high production levels? You don't need the city to grow to 20-30 citizens like you would in an SSC, but you want to be able to at least work all the sheild-producing squares in the city. If the city has lots of sheild potential, but you wont be able to work them, you might be better off putting the wonder in the trade city.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I would put it in your science city.

Production basically depends simply on your total number of citizens. The only thing that enhances your production for military units until IA is the barracks. Later, a factory will also help.

So adding 9 citizens to a city does not help you more than adding 9 citizens to another city for your production. Also, the 3 coal do not matter. I assume you will be using these with 12 citizens as well. The added 9 citizens would use the least productive tiles in the city radius.

For science however, you can have it multiplied by the science wonders and of course the lib anr uni. Therefore, 9 citizens in your city with these wonders will have a much larger impact than in another city.

An exception would be if you have iron and coal in 1 city. This city could build that production increasing wonder that i haven't seen in 3 years or so and then, you'd have the similar reasoning going for this city in production as i just gave you for the city with science wonders.

If your cities are spaced so that all of them could be size 21 (that would be a newbie error btw), it all doesn't really matter a lot. Hospitals don't come much later than shakespeares. In this case, you probably better don't research democracy and free artisry.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I would put it in your science city.

Production basically depends simply on your total number of citizens. The only thing that enhances your production for military units until IA is the barracks. Later, a factory will also help.

So adding 9 citizens to a city does not help you more than adding 9 citizens to another city for your production. Also, the 3 coal do not matter. I assume you will be using these with 12 citizens as well. The added 9 citizens would use the least productive tiles in the city radius.

For science however, you can have it multiplied by the science wonders and of course the lib anr uni. Therefore, 9 citizens in your city with these wonders will have a much larger impact than in another city.

An exception would be if you have iron and coal in 1 city. This city could build that production increasing wonder that i haven't seen in 3 years or so and then, you'd have the similar reasoning going for this city in production as i just gave you for the city with science wonders.

If your cities are spaced so that all of them could be size 21 (that would be a newbie error btw), it all doesn't really matter a lot. Hospitals don't come much later than shakespeares. In this case, you probably better don't research democracy and free artisry.

Methinks you wandered into the Civ2 world accidentally. We don't have any hospitals, or free artistry here. Shakespeare is much more powerful in Civ2.

 

[ElephantU]

This city could build that production increasing wonder that i haven't seen in 3 years or so and then, you'd have the similar reasoning going for this city in production as i just gave you for the city with science wonders.

King Richard's Crusade?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

King Richard's Crusade?

Based on the "iron and coal in 1 city" comment, combined with references to non-civ2 techs, I'm pretty sure he's referring to the Iron Works Small wonder in Civ3 (I have no idea if it's in 4 or not).

Small Wonder: Iron Works
Cost: 300 shields
Culture: 2
Prereq: Coal and iron in city radius
Benefit: Doubles shield output of city

 

[KnightTemp]

If your cities are spaced so that all of them could be size 21 (that would be a newbie error btw),

Speaking as a newbie, I'm interested in this comment. Are you implying that planning size 21 cities at the beginning is an error? Is this because they would then be too far apart to start with to maintain an easy road network? Or is there another reason?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Clausewitzian]

Interesting questions, Knight. Yours is not the only mind interested in the answer.

Though I've read of smaller spaced cities for the rapid early growth doctrine, I was not under the impression that it was an imperative of advanced play.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Though I've read of smaller spaced cities for the rapid early growth doctrine, I was not under the impression that it was an imperative of advanced play.

Keeping the spaces small between cities is indeed for rapid growth. It does not mean that it's the best way of playing. If you're playing for max score it is probably better to have more distance between the cities. But if you're playing early conquest or early landing it is probably better to have the first cities close together (e.g. faster research).

It's all how you want to play the game and what goal you have.

 

[KnightTemp]

Interesting questions, Knight. Yours is not the only mind interested in the answer.

Though I've read of smaller spaced cities for the rapid early growth doctrine, I was not under the impression that it was an imperative of advanced play.

Keeping the spaces small between cities is indeed for rapid growth. It does not mean that it's the best way of playing. If you're playing for max score it is probably better to have more distance between the cities. But if you're playing early conquest or early landing it is probably better to have the first cities close together (e.g. faster research).

It's all how you want to play the game and what goal you have.

Thank you, Clausewitzian and Gorter - I find these forums really valuable, because it prompts one to think about previously unthought ideas. For GOTM where speed rather than score is the essence, I can see now that a 9-square rather than a 21-square city might well be preferable.

 

[neutrino]

I think Shakespeare's might be more useful for a player's primary production city. Chances are, the SSC, even if its production is considerable, is not likely to build and support a large number of military units, as its purpose is to churn out as much trade and science points as possible, not get distracted with supporting war effort. With Michelangelo's and Bach's, the SSC should not have too much problem with revolt.

 

[Terrapin]

I think Shakespeare's might be more useful for a player's primary production city. Chances are, the SSC, even if its production is considerable, is not likely to build and support a large number of military units, as its purpose is to churn out as much trade and science points as possible, not get distracted with supporting war effort. With Michelangelo's and Bach's, the SSC should not have too much problem with revolt.

I agree with your position, Neut, but to be fair, you can gain the benefit of having military units supported by your SSC by just sending them there and changing their city of origin, which takes no time w/railroads. Of course you lose shields to support, but under the prevailing philosophy pretty much everything in the SSC is either rush bought or 'cameled' into existence.

But I, like you, Neut, prefer Shakes in my best 'factory' city to build the biggest possible 'touring' army in Democracy.

 

[Ace]

If you need ships, you might want to put shakes in a high production coastal city in order to build and/or rehome ships there to avoid unhappiness in Republic or Democracy. Each ship, expect for Galleons and Transports, causes red shields, but the city with shakes can support as many as it has shields without causing any unhappiness.

This can be vital if your playing an early Republic and need a long ship chain with caravels or triremes.

 

[neutrino]

I agree with your position, Neut, but to be fair, you can gain the benefit of having military units supported by your SSC by just sending them there and changing their city of origin, which takes no time w/railroads. Of course you lose shields to support, but under the prevailing philosophy pretty much everything in the SSC is either rush bought or 'cameled' into existence.

But I, like you, Neut, prefer Shakes in my best 'factory' city to build the biggest possible 'touring' army in Democracy.

Good point.

I have also tried 'Mega-City' = SSC + PPC all in one. In practice, SSC can also function as PPC, as production and unit support do not adversely affect SSC's trade & science, unless it builds and supports an army of settlers/engineers. Also, oftentimes, I have noticed that PPC as a city distinct from SSC may not emerge until into the modern era (takes a while to exploit specials like the iron ore, as roads & railroads have to be built first, shield production do not significantly multiply until factory and power plant get built).

 

[6K Man]

Shakespeare is very valuable in a SSC - if I recall right, somewhere around size 14 a city will stop growing via celebration in Demo/Republic, unless you have Shakespeare there to eliminate the last unhappies. I seem to recall this problem cropping up shortly after HG expires.

Build Shakespeare and you can sell off your Temple in the SSC. Any units you want to build, you can rehome there. The problem with having Shakespeare in a production city is that you waste shields on unit support.

 

[Terrapin]

Shakespeare is very valuable in a SSC - if I recall right, somewhere around size 14 a city will stop growing via celebration in Demo/Republic, unless you have Shakespeare there to eliminate the last unhappies. I seem to recall this problem cropping up shortly after HG expires.

Build Shakespeare and you can sell off your Temple in the SSC. Any units you want to build, you can rehome there. The problem with having Shakespeare in a production city is that you waste shields on unit support.

You can keep your cities, especially the SSC, growing by drowning them in luxuries, but that has a high cost in money and science.

On the other hand, a heavily production oriented city may have trouble remaining stable with pop>=20 even with lots of luxuries. As far as shields spent on unit support, that is true, but is a minimal problem since, using the SSC/Power Demo strategy, you end up rush buying almost everything anyway.

 

[Ace]

In Democracy, at diety level, a size 20+ city with a marketplace, bank, and maybe a stock exchange, superhighway, and airport, with 30-40% luxury setting will have no problem celebrating. You generate coins (and beakers) with trade, so no real hit to revenue or science.

Shakes is great in a port city in Democracy and Republic. You rehome your ships there and do not get hit with unhappiness from non-transports outside the city. Triremes and Caravals can bring down a Rep. or Demo with the red faces they generate, but shakes stops that.

 

[6K Man]

double post

 

[6K Man]

In Democracy, at diety level, a size 20+ city with a marketplace, bank, and maybe a stock exchange, superhighway, and airport, with 30-40% luxury setting will have no problem celebrating. You generate coins (and beakers) with trade, so no real hit to revenue or science.

You'll get Shakespeare considerably sooner than stock exchanges, superhighways, and airports. Naturally, late game celebration is easy when you have all the happiness/trade improvements built.