Shogun 2 Tactics Advice

[Narnia]

I got this game for my birthday a few days ago. I was estatic and immediatly tried to play the game online. I quickly found that the tactics that worked so well on Medieval 2 don't work at all on Shogun 2. I became discouraged and decided that I didn't like the game. However I have sense decided that I will try and come to understand the game mechanics before I accuse them of being broken. That brings me to my questions. (This is for online avatar conquest play)

1. Promotions, upgrades, veteran units:
In Medieval 2, I didn't ever really see the value of upgrades, during the course of a fight, tactics, skill, and terrain made a huge difference while the usefulness of upgrades was questionable. Often, it was better to get an additional inexpensive unit (like peasant spears) than it was to upgrade the average unit. I would often give armor/weapon upgrades to one very important unit (like my only cav unit), but most of the time I would simply ignore the upgrades.

How important are the upgrades in Shogun 2? Are veteran units worth their extra cost? or does it depend on what time of unit it is? If so, can you please give me some guidelines on what troops to upgrade and stuff like that?

2. Strategy
In Medieval 2, I had a default strategy. While I would experiment with other techniques and would not always use this, I found that I would often rely on it. I would have my archers in the front cause I quickly learned that they can do some serious damage when firing directly on the enemy, they also can prevent the enemy from hitting your melee troops by acting as a meat shield. They would fall back behind my line when the enemy got close. Next were spears set up in spear wall formation. Behind them were my main army along with my general. Along the flanks of the main part of my army are 1 or 2 units of high quality spears on either side and sometimes at my rear as well. When the battle started, my cav would usually attack their cav. Meanwhile, my spears would pin down their front line while I would deploy my reserve units of normal infantry to either reinforce my main line or to flank the enemy. Additionally, if my cav became free, they would also perform flanking attacks. I would keep my extra few units of spears behind to counter any cav that might try and outflank my main force.

I've tried to adapt this strategy to shogun 2 and it didn't work very well. I would use Yari Ashigaru as the main line, with the basic sword infantry as my reserves. I use Yari Samurai as my flank and rear guards. I use the lowest level bow units for my archers. It almost always ends in disaster. Any ideas why? Should I use swords as my main line instead? If so, which ones?

3. Cav tactics.
In medieval 2, cav were a bit tough to use. You couldn't just hit the enemy, pull back and then instantly charge again, you had to pull them back a certain distance, let them reform, and then hit again. If you didn't pull back far enough the charge wouldn't work either. I've heard that it was different in rome and you could just hit, retreat, and hit again. What about Shogun? Do you have to reform? Do you have to pull back at least a certain distance before you can charge? What about wedge formation, in medieval 2 it was almost worthless, what about Shogun? As a general rule, should you use wedge formation or not? Also, in medieval 2, if engaged the enemy's spears, then hit them in the back with your cav, no more spears. Does this work in Shogun 2? Can you safely hit a spear unit that is running like you could in medieval 2?

4. Random questions
When I right click on a destination I want my units to move to, sometimes they run, sometimes they walk, and sometimes a few units will walk while the rest run. Can someone please explain why this is and how to know what they will choose to do?

I have trouble telling different units apart, right now, the only way I can tell if a unit has spears, swords, or bows is by zooming WAY in until I can actually see the weapon. Does anyone know a better way to quickly tell what type of unit it is?

In Medieval 2, in a pinch I would often use my general as heavy cav. Is this a good idea in Shogun or is it suicide? Is there ever a time to have my general charge the enemy?

In medieval 2, one could often break a tired unit with a fresh archer unit by having the archers charge the enemy. You would have to be careful though as the archers would have to be fresh and the enemy would have to be tired and already a bit low on moral otherwise it wouldn't work. Is this still possible or have archers' melee ability been completely removed?

I've read that Bow Ashigaru can put up a defensive screen that will help to stop a charge. However I can't figure out how. Any suggestions?

How do I set the Tab key to cycle between units? The default is the , and . keys and it won't let me set it to the tab key. Is there a work around that will allow me to do this? If it is an issue of it being a steam game, then in black ops I was able to find a config file that allowed me to manually insert the hotkeys I wanted to, is there one for shogun? If so, where? (also if this is the case, would I enter the word "tab" or something else to change the hotkey to tab?

Also, any other suggestions would be great. Thanks. I'm sorry for the wall of text.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I've been playing the game since the week it came out. The only other game I've ever played in the Total War series is Rome. Some of the tactics work and some don't. I'll try and mention what I've found useful. I'm still learning the motions, so some of what I say may be rendered obsolete in the future.

1. Promotions, upgrades, veteran units:
How important are the upgrades in Shogun 2? Are veteran units worth their extra cost? or does it depend on what time of unit it is? If so, can you please give me some guidelines on what troops to upgrade and stuff like that?

Promotions matter a great deal. They are most important to generals, because the effects to one general may apply to a whole army. For example, the wedge formation can only be selected by a general that has the "cavalry commander" upgrade. As for veteran upgrades, the manual doesn't give any specific advantage to it. However, my casual observation indicates that for every point of veteranship, the unit gains some point(s) of upgrade to its various attributes. If it's an archer, it may gain accuracy. If it's a melee unit, it may gain melee attack and/or defense. The application of attribute enhancements seems across the board for each unit, but can't affect certain things. For example, no matter how how veteran an archer unit is, its ammo can't increase.

2. Strategy
In Medieval 2, I had a default strategy. While I would experiment with other techniques and would not always use this, I found that I would often rely on it. I would have my archers in the front cause I quickly learned that they can do some serious damage when firing directly on the enemy, they also can prevent the enemy from hitting your melee troops by acting as a meat shield. They would fall back behind my line when the enemy got close. Next were spears set up in spear wall formation. Behind them were my main army along with my general...

This is actually the ideal plan in nearly any conventional battle both in games and was in real life. It does work in Shogun 2 if applied properly. You simply set your archers to "skirmish" mode by hitting the appropriate button. They will run away when approached by enemy units, allowing your melee units to attack them. There is some disadvantage here because units in Shogun 2 get a "charge bonus" so if your own troops merely wait for the enemy to come, they will have a disadvantage against them if they are charging them. Your best bet for dedicated melee units, btw, are katana samurai. They have the best melee score for their price. Yari ashigaru are only effective against cavalry. You can sometimes make due with naginata samurai, as they can handle both infantry and cavalry, albeit not as well against infantry as katana samurai.

More challenging is winning battles when you don't have all the forces you need, but that's a whole nother long topic.

3. Cav tactics.

I'm still working on the best use of cavalry, and I agree they're hard to use effectively. What I have found is that the katana cavalry are the best for flank attacks and charges against infantry that don't wield spears or naginata. They are best used when attacking infantry from a position they aren't facing, such as from the rear or flank. Yari cavalry are best used against other cavalry, such as katana and bow cavalry. When used best, they can discourage a charge at the flanks by katana cavalry, and must be withdrawn immediately thereafter. Bow cavalry seem best as harassers of the flanks. Unlike the foot archery units, which can be set to "fire at will", bow cavalry are best directed to their target under skirmish mode. They will approach a firing distance, then pull back when the enemy approaches, then strike again. When you unlock the "swooping crane" upgrade, you can make them fire continuously in a loop, similar to the Roman Cantabrian circle. These cavalry are best directed at harassing the enemy flanks to discourage them from flanking you.

When I right click on a destination I want my units to move to, sometimes they run, sometimes they walk, and sometimes a few units will walk while the rest run. Can someone please explain why this is and how to know what they will choose to do?

The best way to move units is not to simply right click on the spot, but rather to hold the right mouse button and drag it across the screen like marking a box. A grid will show up, with arrows, indicating the formation that the unit will take and the direction it'll face. This is far more precise than simply pointing and right-clicking. I do this for every non-attack order.

I have trouble telling different units apart, right now, the only way I can tell if a unit has spears, swords, or bows is by zooming WAY in until I can actually see the weapon. Does anyone know a better way to quickly tell what type of unit it is?

Use the unit banners. They will also indicate the strength of the unit. The more shredded the flag, the more casualties it has taken.

In Medieval 2, in a pinch I would often use my general as heavy cav. Is this a good idea in Shogun or is it suicide? Is there ever a time to have my general charge the enemy?

In the right time, it can. You just have to see how the battle is going. The general unit functions as katana cavalry with maximal upgrades.

In medieval 2, one could often break a tired unit with a fresh archer unit by having the archers charge the enemy. You would have to be careful though as the archers would have to be fresh and the enemy would have to be tired and already a bit low on moral otherwise it wouldn't work. Is this still possible or have archers' melee ability been completely removed?

Best not used. The only archers that have good melee are bow samurai, but even these should not be dedicated to melee.

I've read that Bow Ashigaru can put up a defensive screen that will help to stop a charge. However I can't figure out how. Any suggestions?

Not the ideal way. Best to use the yari spear wall, which can be clicked on all yari ashigaru.

I have also found, btw, that ambushes and other sneaky tactics are highly sought. If you see an enemy ahead which has nearly equal numbers, try to goad him to pass by a road with a forest while you lie in wait. Your best source for this are ninja, which can be recruited in any province with the sake den and its upgrades. They can see the enemy coming and you can plan ahead. Metsuke also are useful for bribery. If you have lots of cash but few troops, you can bribe the enemy troops, and sometimes even whole provinces, to join you. Even monks can be useful, in that they can trigger revolutions in provinces, distracting the enemy, and can undermine your non-Buddhist neighbors by simply being in a province and spreading Buddhism. Of note, monk actions are very cheap, sometimes being free.

I'm still trying to figure out the best use of kisho ninjas, but I suspect that they are best used in the same role as regular ninjas -- saboteurs and assassins. I would send them to firebomb an enemy gate while my archers distract them at another gate. I may send them to assassinate a general. Or they can take out an enemy tower, which, btw, rains arrows on you until you capture or destroy it.

 

[Narnia]

First of all, thank you so much for your hints and tips, they will be a big help.

I've read that Bow Ashigaru can put up a defensive screen that will help to stop a charge. However I can't figure out how. Any suggestions?

Not the ideal way. Best to use the yari spear wall, which can be clicked on all yari ashigaru.

I know that invantry would be better. However I would still like to know how to set them up. What key is it set to by default? (PS: I play online if that makes a difference)

In medieval 2, one could often break a tired unit with a fresh archer unit by having the archers charge the enemy. You would have to be careful though as the archers would have to be fresh and the enemy would have to be tired and already a bit low on moral otherwise it wouldn't work. Is this still possible or have archers' melee ability been completely removed?

Best not used. The only archers that have good melee are bow samurai, but even these should not be dedicated to melee.

I know, it was just in my last match, most of my army was dead or routed but I still had my 3 archers left and they had not suffered a single casualty for almost the entire (other than about 5 who got shot at the very beginning). I also had a depleted unit of yari cav. I spotted an opportunity where I had 2 archers at the top of an extremely steep hill and they were being charged by 1 heavily depleted unit of Yari Ashigaru. If I had counter charged I would likely have broken them without suffering many casualties however I did not know how to do so and I think it may have cost me the battle. I know that it is usually not a good idea and is never ideal but once in a while I have been in the rare situation where it is needed. How do I tell ranged units to charge the enemy?

This is actually the ideal plan in nearly any conventional battle both in games and was in real life. It does work in Shogun 2 if applied properly. You simply set your archers to "skirmish" mode by hitting the appropriate button. They will run away when approached by enemy units, allowing your melee units to attack them. There is some disadvantage here because units in Shogun 2 get a "charge bonus" so if your own troops merely wait for the enemy to come, they will have a disadvantage against them if they are charging them. Your best bet for dedicated melee units, btw, are katana samurai. They have the best melee score for their price. Yari ashigaru are only effective against cavalry. You can sometimes make due with naginata samurai, as they can handle both infantry and cavalry, albeit not as well against infantry as katana samurai.

Would it be better for me to set my yari to spear wall while the enemy charges? Or should I counter charge? Also, should my main line be yari Ashigaru, yari samurai, katana samurai or something else?

I think that I really messed up my avatar conquest set up, at the very beginning I saw that I could get ninjas and was like "NINJA'S!!!!" so I made a bee line for the provinces that would allow me to get them. Now I'm regretting it because I've only unlocked 2nd tire spears, 1st tire swords, 2nd tire archers, 2nd tire cav, and 1st level siege/special (aka catapults) (not to mention that I still don't have ninjas lol) so I'm having a lot of trouble. I'm going to upload a screenshot of my avatar conquest map, could someone please give me some advice on what provinces I should take and why? Thanks.

What skills should I get for my avatar? I got the first bow skill that allows my general to have a bow, then I started investing solely in leadership. Is this wise? What skills should I make a priority and why?

I have also found, btw, that ambushes and other sneaky tactics are highly sought. If you see an enemy ahead which has nearly equal numbers, try to goad him to pass by a road with a forest while you lie in wait.

If you are talking about what to do on the battlefield, I often will have my cav try and sneak up on the enemy by going slowly through the trees. I'll sometimes have other units do the same.

Also, why is it that when my yari cav can't even kill a basic archer unit? Is there some trick to using them that I'm not seeing?

Also, how do I counter Great Guard? I don't have access to them yet and I've sent 4 units of yari and 2nd tire cav along with my general to kill them while I also had the hill advantage. Result: 4 dead/routing cav units and 1 dead general. How do I fight them?


Edit: Yes I know I said I would upload a screen shot of the avatar conquest map, however the print screen button on my computer doesn't work on videogames so I had to take a picture with a camera (don't worry, I looked and you can see the provinces just fine). I can't upload it because I have to go somewhere in a few minutes and it usually takes me a while to upload pictures from my camera

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

First of all, thank you so much for your hints and tips, they will be a big help.

I know that invantry would be better. However I would still like to know how to set them up. What key is it set to by default? (PS: I play online if that makes a difference)

You simply don't set the archers to skirmish mode. The default is non-skirmish, so that's easy enough. When they are charged, they will try to engage the enemy in melee combat, and will usually get wasted as archers have the lowest melee combat score in the game. Doing this will cause a large amount of casualties. In the campaign game, you end up regretting this because you will run out of archers too quickly when you face the enemy the second time.

If you want archers to engage the enemy in melee, just click on the "melee" button in the lower left, which has two crossed swords. This will make all attacks be melee for that unit, rather than ranged. Units that only have melee attacks obviously don't need this. To charge the enemy, you have to double right click, or select the "run" button on the lower left corner.

Would it be better for me to set my yari to spear wall while the enemy charges? Or should I counter charge? Also, should my main line be yari Ashigaru, yari samurai, katana samurai or something else?

The spear wall is claimed to only be effective against charging cavalry, but I have a suspicion it may in fact be effective for any charging units. I'll have to do some test battles to see this. The spear wall is only available to yari ashigaru, not yari samurai, btw. Yari samurai compensate for this by having the "rapid advance" ability that, when clicked, allows them to charge more rapidly against an enemy. So I don't know what the answer to your question is, except to say that counter-charging is only useful if you are be charged by spear wielding troops and you charge with katana or nodachi samurai. The nodachi samurai are especially suited to the infantry charge, as they have a huge charge bonus but need katana samurai as backup, due to their poor prolonged melee ability.

My suspicion is that the best formation is one where your spearmen (ashigaru or samurai) are at the flanks while katana and nodachi samurai are in the center. This avoids being outflanked by cavalry. A suitable replacement for spearmen are naginata samurai, which can also engage in melee effectively and can themselves outflank the enemy.

Btw, when it comes to flanking, I have found that the ideal way to do so is to first lock melee combat with the enemy, and only then send a cavalry charge at the flanks. The sudden charge will create a morale shock. What I have yet to discover is how to disengage said cavalry before they're torn up by combat itself. It seems ordering their withdrawal is near impossible, as they themselves immediately become locked in combat and unable to break free.

Another thing I found useful is to use katana cavalry to flank archers. I will get out of their firing arc and flank attack them. Archers are poor melee combatants and will often fare poorly even in prolonged combat.

I think that I really messed up my avatar conquest set up, at the very beginning I saw that I could get ninjas and was like "NINJA'S!!!!" so I made a bee line for the provinces that would allow me to get them.

I've barely scratched the surface of multiplayer. Only yesterday did I win my first multiplayer battle. I've been concentrating on winning the single player campaign, which I have yet to do. Always something goes wrong during Realm Divide.

If you are talking about what to do on the battlefield, I often will have my cav try and sneak up on the enemy by going slowly through the trees. I'll sometimes have other units do the same.

No, I'm talking about the campaign.

Also, why is it that when my yari cav can't even kill a basic archer unit? Is there some trick to using them that I'm not seeing?

They aren't useful for that. You're best off using a unit that has a higher melee score, such as the katana cavalry.

Also, how do I counter Great Guard? I don't have access to them yet and I've sent 4 units of yari and 2nd tire cav along with my general to kill them while I also had the hill advantage. Result: 4 dead/routing cav units and 1 dead general. How do I fight them?

No idea.

 

[Narnia]

You simply don't set the archers to skirmish mode. The default is non-skirmish, so that's easy enough. When they are charged, they will try to engage the enemy in melee combat, and will usually get wasted as archers have the lowest melee combat score in the game. Doing this will cause a large amount of casualties. In the campaign game, you end up regretting this because you will run out of archers too quickly when you face the enemy the second time.

I'm sorry, I just realized that I wasn't very clear with my question. How do you put up the archer's defensive screen? I can't find the button.

Also, I just got on the game and realized that I mistook light cav for yari cav. I've been using light cav all this time thinking that they were light cav

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I'm sorry, I just realized that I wasn't very clear with my question. How do you put up the archer's defensive screen? I can't find the button.

I don't think there's such a thing. What you may be referring to is the "fire at will" button, which is set to "on" by default. What this means is that if an archer unit sights an enemy within its firing arc and range (visible as a red border when clicked on that archer unit), it will fire on that unit automatically. They will keep firing on the unit as it runs at them until forced to engage in melee. In case it isn't clear, archery units have to stay still to fire. Even the bow cavalry will stop momentarily to fire unless they are in the "swooping crane" formation.

Also, I just got on the game and realized that I mistook light cav for yari cav. I've been using light cav all this time thinking that they were light cav

The light cavalry are just speed bumps on the way to better cavalry units. Their only effective use seems to be to flank archers and thereby distract them from firing at your infantry (they are forced to engage in melee with the cavalry). Also, whenever archers are attacked, they tend to be disoriented from their intended targets and take a long time to find them again, since they have to reform the entire group.

Some of my thoughts on siege warfare:

It seems difficult to penetrate into a castle. The only way in is either to climb over the walls or charge through the gates. The gates can only be penetrated either by firebombing it until it burns or having a ninja sabotage the gates before the battle. I have also had some success in having archers fire flaming arrows at gates, causing them to bust open without having infantry firebomb it. An alternative would be to use bomb throwers or even kisho ninja. I have found that climbing over the gate is ill advised unless you can lock into melee combat with all the enemy's forces at that castle level with your other forces, so that no one can break out of combat to pick off your men as they climb over. The best way, of course, if you can get it, is to have the fire projecting mangonels fire directly at the gates. Simply unclick "fire at will" and instead select a specific target, the gate. Also, it's important to capture towers as you approach them, for they can harass your forces with arrows while they're engaged in combat with other enemies.

Tell me more about the multiplayer games. I have little concept of what the avatar and multiplayer campaigns are.

 

[Narnia]

Thanks for all the advice. I just went on a 10 win streak!
Apparently I only needed to make a few adjustments to my strategy such as switching to yari samurai, getting and using better swords, and using yari cav instead of light cav.

Ok, multiplayer matches.
You make an avatar and name him (this part is vanity only). For example I choose the name Marth (from the Japanese Fire Emblem games). You then are placed on a simplified map of Japan. You will have a movable ship token and an army token. Your goal is to conquer all of Japan (don't worry, you can't lose territory nor can you be attacked) There are a bunch of provinces. Each one offers a different bonus. You will start out by being able to choose a starting location, this will dictate where on the map you start (obviously) along with what starting special unit you will have (I'll talk more about that in a second). Some Provinces will have a building icon.

Units: You will start out with only tire 1 units available in each category, spears, bows, guns, swords, cav, special (ninja/fire bomb throwers/siege/etc). Some Provinces will have a building icon in them. This will unlock the next tire of unit in what ever category the building is for when you obtain the province (it will tell you what unit you will get in the list of bonuses); for example, a cav building will unlock the next tire of cav while a spear building will unlock the next tire of spears.
Once you choose your starting location, click and drag either your boat or your army token (I would suggest you move the army token, I have no idea if you can even capture territories with the boat token) into an adjacent province. Click the match made battle icon and then make sure that check marks are next to your preferred battle type.
When an opponent has been found, choose your army set up and start the game.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

So what happens after you've conquered all the provinces in the avatar mode? There aren't many, and I've already conquered 1. Do I assume that you simply unlock all the bonuses from those provinces? And then what?

What's with all the clans available that you can join? What's the point? Do they give you any advantage?

How does the multiplayer campaign work?

Congratulations on your victories!

 

[Narnia]

So what happens after you've conquered all the provinces in the avatar mode? There aren't many, and I've already conquered 1. Do I assume that you simply unlock all the bonuses from those provinces? And then what?

I haven't conquered all the provinces yet but from what I've read it sounds like this is the case.

What's with all the clans available that you can join? What's the point? Do they give you any advantage?

Again, I'm not in a clan so I don't know this for sure... but from what I've read, each clan will have 1 of 4 specialties, swords, spears, bows, and I forgot what the 4th one was. This will mean that your veteran units in that category will have a few extra promotions available. I'm not sure if there are any other advantages besides this one.

How does the multiplayer campaign work?

I have no idea, I've never tried it. It sounds like it simply replaces the hot seat function of previous games but I honestly don't know.

Congratulations on your victories!

Thanks man!

 

[trader/warrior]

My advice would be try more missiles and cavalry. Winning the missile fight and the freedom to roam around their flanks really gives you the initiative in battle.

I usually use 2 disposable ashigaru bows in front and 3 samurai bows (or 2 + 2 matchlock) behind the first line of infantry to be moved up to the front or back to support as needed. Getting off that big volley of fire arrows spread out on the enemy infantry line at the right time really devestates morale and pays for any infantry you could have instead. In large funds battles I sometimes take many more and it works quite well. Can even do a tiny bit of melee.

I really feel I get much more freedom on the battlefield that way. Untill the shot out enemy desperately charges of course, often still having more infantry than you, but your infantry only has to hold untill your missiles and cavalry kills their morale.

It's all down to individual taste and skills of course, some people play well without any skirmishing units at all.

 

[Yeekim]

TW battles are all about finding a weak spot, starting a rout and making it a chain reaction. Shogun 2 is no different.
Missile troops and cavalry are generally more effective here, since they can be concentrated on said weak spot relatively faster.

At least that is my experience, but I am by no means Shogun 2 veteran.