Should 'black-clicking' be allowed?

[ElephantU]

I am with golem: not a good argument for me. The game allows also to switch in the cheat mode, to reveal all the map and to reload back... or you can reload hut and combat outcomes. All these things are not detectable. Do you wish to allow them?
KingWilly says Yes, but that sounds horrible for me.

The game was designed so that once Cheat mode is enabled it will stay flagged throughout the game. Reloading a previous version after peeking through Cheat was something they probably could not figure a way to defend against, although a few instances of players describing Cheat staying active during reloads (and other players finding ways to "deactivate" it) makes me suspect they tried. Doing this, or loading the game in MapEditor to see hidden terrain, is definitely against the spirit of the competition ("exploring unknown worlds"), and there seem to be some ways to "guess" that illegal map knowledge leads to overly quick expansion.

As far as hut reloads go, Samson's statistical analysis gives us some idea of what "average" hut result distribution should be. You could stretch things once or twice, but over a whole game they should even out.

I think we need to set the rules in a balance between the desired spirit of the game for players and some ability for moderators to detect abuse and reward good play. Since the GOTM is both a competion and a learning experience, we should encourage award-winning players to keep frequent saves and perhaps a log in order to validate their extraordinary play and educate less-gifted players. We don't want beginners to throw in the towel or go looking for cheat codes - we want them to learn the intricacies of the game so that they can enjoy it more.

 

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Ace
And, more importantly, the rewards are not worth the effort. The only immediate benefit is not losing a trireme sailing off into the unknown.

Another one is knowledge of positions of all cities ... you have a free Marco Polo...

 

[Andu Indorin]

Another one is knowledge of positions of all cities ... you have a free Marco Polo...

Off hand, I am unaware of the entirety of this technique. But it does sound rather time consuming ... Here, I think, that I would say that "Black Clicking" does not offer a clear advantage insofar as it's probably easier to just build Marco and swap maps.

As for the rehoming of Caravans ... from the standpoint of world history and market economies, which Civ 2 does pretty good job of emulating (and far better than Civ 3), the rehoming of Caravans is entirely defensible. A "good" bug, as it were. That said, from a purely game-play standpoint, eliminating the rehoming of Caravans could serve as a kind of a equalizer between the different styles of play among players. Hence, for GOTM purposes, it's elimination as a technique is worth debating . . .

Of course, when it comes to historicity, try as I might, I cannot come up with historical justification for another common technique, namely, gifting the Key Civ. ...

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Another one is knowledge of positions of all cities ... you have a free Marco Polo...

I am one of the unapologetic black clickers, and I don't ever use it for this. (and that's hardly what I usually want Marco for either, but that's beside the point. )

 

[Ace]

Another one is knowledge of positions of all cities ... you have a free Marco Polo...

Knowing where cities are is hardly "a free Marco Polo...". You do not have contact with those cities and, more importantly, you do not have diplomatic relations with them. You still have to physically contact them, and establish an embassy to "get a free Marco Polo". Even on a small map, knowing where a city is, is not the same as contacting it with a dip. And, it seems to me, that even if you black click the entire map, and find all the cities, this info is only good for the turn you do it. Without a "real embassy, or MP", it seems like you would have to black click the map every turn to keep current with changes....

I still say that if someone wants to go to all that effort, let them.

 

[Terrapin]

From what I read, this issue answers itself. DoM indicated that he could switch up continent/ocean numbers to foil 'black clickers.' If that is the case, then black clicking rules can be left up to individual scenario designers, who can choose to prevent it or let it be. That being said, I have neither black clicked nor completed a GotM so take my opinion for what it is worth....

 

[ElephantU]

That only works if you have a single large continent dominating the map, and any large lakes within it will still be distinguishable (once you realize they are not islands). That said, it can be a trick the game designer can play on those who do black-click: hide one continent from the black-clickers while allowing discovery of the rest.

 

[A+ombomb]

Ace, black clicking and reloading are both equally cheating. Just because something can be done without using the cheat mode doesn't make it not cheating.

I think if we can't change the civ2 code for ourselves, then we should just play all hutless games, but then again most people like huts because most people like to gamble (I hate gambling), so I don't expect many people to be with me. We could also play games where the main continent is always 1, thus eliminating most of the black clicking. Then we have a very fair game!

 

[Terrapin]

A hutless game would be kinda lame! No NONE units to explore with! No NONE settlers! What would the Quarterback say before "Hike"? Oh. wrong game .

 

[ElephantU]

You automatically get NONE settlers to begin with, and any bribed settlers or engineers far enough away will also be NONE. Yes, you would lose out on NONE explorers if you started on a large enough island that had other AI civs. You can still bribe some later in the game if you really like a NONE army.

A greater loss in depth of play would be that no huts requires a Scenario start, which turns off tech hiding.

 

[SlowThinker]

It is interesting, I have a completely different view towards tech hiding: I like open techs, since I consider hidden techs as an unnecessary complication. IMHO in Civ2 there are more interesting things you can direct your thinking on...

 

[A+ombomb]

I like no tech hiding too, for the same reasons as slow thinker. The prerequisites for each tech are enough of a barrier on their own.

 

[biru biru]

I just confirmed that a right click on black that lands on a city fails to re-center the map, and that then hitting the space bar further reveals the cities trade demands, possibly more.

cheers to the settler at apolyton for the hint. And thanks!

I haven't used black-clicking, but of course now that I am starting multy-player, I intend to within the bounds of reason and politeness.

 

[URUWASHI]

The issue here is to me like using Steroyds.
Like in Baseball. You dont get cought, You are OK.
If anyone cheats ????? How you gonna get cougth???
I am certain its lots of Hanky Panky here.......
Is it a way for those who cheat to be caught ??
On My CD , Im not able to RE-HOme caravans , and I discvovered Black Clicking 2 months ago......AND I can not locate cities , maybe because Its not part of my game .
I can not find cities etc.......that would not make a difference to me.......

THat I believe that people cheat ????? ......... Yes
THatI believe that people open Maps and use Map editors ????..No doubt .
That I believe that people find ways to score higher than the the rest of us ???? YES
How are we gonna stop that ???
You Can not ..its an honor system.
To some people to have the gold medal its ok reagrdless , how they won it..........LOL Cheating a Bit .....LOL AS BEN JHONSON
But Thats to me is not right ..... , we dont have a Government body that can check on that ......so will will it make a difference ???
The way I look it , is simple , YES I love to have my name on a Best score , gold , silver or Copper medal , but when I see it it is because I did it without cheating.

Game 49 I could finished number 2 or 3 IF I could find the last english city....instead I wasted 30 turns finding that city.....Yes , I could have save the game and cheated .,.gee got back 30 turns back and find the city..............THat would have make me feel better ?????? Nope.

I am certain that some players manipulate the score and its obvious they want to achieve the highest scores.
And here is why i base my point, look at the Hall of Fame , Deity level. Top 10.
I will state that 3 of those games are juiced up.
How is it possible for someone to score over 2000% and have populations of over 300.000.000 ??
230 Cities ??? Most size 60 ...50 and 40 ?? Small cities size 32 ??
Every possible improvement...230 Aqueducts ...230 Manufacturing Plants, 230 Airports......etc. Thats plainly impossible ....
Interesting the power graphs shows an unusual pattern.....after conquering most of the other Civs .....the power graph goes from 100 down to zero....and remains like that for several turns.......then raises in one turn to 100 ....how is that possible ??

Using the map editor I have " copied " this maps , set the starting 7 civs on the same location......
I have played..and replayed those games where people have posted some incredible stats ......( and thats after I knew the outcome ) and EVEN after I knew the loctations , they have played a " Perfect " game ..........??????
How can you do that on Deity level ??? Its beyond Amazing to me .....!!
Nobody can be that good......!!
Some of the scores are " TOO PERFECT "...but , Can we say they are not ?????
Going back ......Black Clicking has not much effect to me , because I do not use it.
Like Re-Homing Caravans...Again , I can not use that ........
Opening Maps ..Using the Map editor........Yes , is several ways to cheat to inflate scores.
So Black Clicking , Re Homing , ....... just small pieces of the game
I do not agree with BlackClicking , but that is not a Big deal , regardelss of the outcome ..and the voting .........it will make no difference.

 

[starlifter]

by URUWASHI:
On My CD , Im not able to RE-HOme caravans

I was looking at the re-homing of trade issue, and saw this. If rehoming is a quirk for only 5.4.0f, then rehoming should certainly not be allowed in comparison play. Trade is too powerful.

Since I play MGE exclusively, but also have 2.42, I installed 2.42 and did some tests. Civ 2 Classic (2.42) behaves just like MGE, as far as I can tell. No difference. 2.42 rehomes trade like 5.4.0f does.

The two major variants are 2.42 and 5.4.0f, and they treat trade the same... what version do you play?

About black-clicking... yes, its wankering. But Civ 2 is an abstraction anyway. It benefits early conquerors and trireme navies the most. But then any game oddity is going to 'benefit' someone somehow. Though I don't use it, and normally don't early conquer, I'm for leaving it allowed. Civ 2 turns on micromanagement anyway, at least in HoF and comparison play.

Every possible improvement...230 Aqueducts ...230 Manufacturing Plants, 230 Airports......etc. Thats plainly impossible ....

Wrong on that count. Sorry, but its not only possible, its downright trivial... if you have the real-time to wade through 254 cities each turn.

Interesting the power graphs shows an unusual pattern.....after conquering most of the other Civs .....the power graph goes from 100 down to zero....and remains like that for several turns.......then raises in one turn to 100 ....how is that possible ??

I have not seen that happen in personal experience, e.g., games (most of which are not publicly posted by me or others who have played them, are not in the HoF) that I "know" first hand have never exhibited behavior like you refer to. That does not mean it cannot happen, though. Absence of observation does not equal impossibility, however... The primary game which was strongly debated in 2001 was Shadowdale's, especially at the other big Civ 2 website. Evidently, that was removed from the HoF in the last 4 years.... so most will never see that one if they haven't already, which I think is the one you are primariliy getting at.

Sometime in the future... as a long-term project... we could do a public large (maybe huge) random-map diety, with the goal from the outset being to hit the near-absolute maximum natural city score (e.g., no FCT). Alternatively, to make a break with about 120 turns remaining (e.g., all techs done, 1 pet city), or even pet unfounded respawn AI (to allow 255 cities), and play it to two alternative conclusions... one with FCT, the other without. And make saves every 10 turns or so.

230 Cities ??? Most size 60 ...50 and 40 ?? Small cities size 32 ??

Try 254, for a good HoF effort. BTW, you can WLTP to 41, and beyond that you can use food freight. With a system of kiting food freight, you can force a city far beyond it's natural size (that which the underlying terrain alone+food routes could support). To do this on a large scale can only be done with the FCT, which is (and has been) permitted in HoF games. Thus, a city of size 32 is basically a failure of a city for an FCT game. But for non-FCT, a 32 is usually limited by overlap, non-grassland farmland, and/or ocean squares.

A+ombomb:
... then we should just play all hutless games, ...

Hutless can level the apparant randomness of the early start. As long as everyone played hutless (e.g., GOTM 68), it is a fair idea. But many like them. The AI does not reload. Can you imagine a note like "The Spanish AI civ did not like its hut outcome, and is reloading the game. Please play your turn again, Human!"


Naturally, as many have noted for a long time, Civ 2 can be abused in many ways... and often one person's abuse, is another person's use. I like airfields on hills, hugely... trade rehoming... despise the FCT... blah blah. But the good thing in GOTMs is that a person (Duke, and before him, Matrix) can set things up for us to play and have fun.

Once upon a time, in the olden days, many of the Civ 2 idiosyncrosies seemed to be the domain of a few; thanks in large part to the GOTMs, most of the game has become transparent, and more fun, especially for newer Civ 2 players. A person may not avail themselves of every behavior, but at least they should be known.

BTW, a thanks to Duke for shepherding Civ 2 all this time! I'm sure its been a lot of work over the years, and the Civ 2 community appreciates your work.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Civ 2 Classic (2.42) behaves just like MGE, as far as I can tell. No difference. 2.42 rehomes trade like 5.4.0f does.

The two major variants are 2.42 and 5.4.0f, and they treat trade the same... what version do you play?

I play the single player version on Mac and it also behaves exactly the same:
you can rehome from inside the city but not from the main menu.

About black-clicking... yes, its wankering. But Civ 2 is an abstraction anyway. It benefits early conquerors and trireme navies the most. But then any game oddity is going to 'benefit' someone somehow. Though I don't use it, and normally don't early conquer, I'm for leaving it allowed.

I do not early conquer either but I love black clicking and use it all the time. I use it early on to find the size of my homeland and later for nearby land masses.

I wish Civ2 had a feature that you could play on a revealed map. I realize you can do that with a scenario as is the case in GOTM68 but it should have been a game setting like many others such as number of civs, level of barbarians, ...

BTW, a thanks to Duke for shepherding Civ 2 all this time! I'm sure its been a lot of work over the years, and the Civ 2 community appreciates your work.

Amen.