Should Civs Have An In-Game Wonder?

[Merciorum]

Going by Wonder:

Angkor Wat: None (Cambodia IRL)
Big Ben: England.
Brandenburg Gate: Germany.
Chichen Itza: Maya.
Cristo Redentor: Brazil.
Eiffel Tower: France.
Himeji Castle: Japan.
Machu Picchu: Inca.
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus: Greece (though located in present-day Turkey).
Notre Dame: France.
Pentagon: America.
Sistine Chapel: None/Vatican.
Statue of Liberty: America (or France ).
Statue of Zeus: Greece.
Stonehenge: None (was made by pre-Celts, not Celts; located in present-day England, where it is something of an important part of the cultural landscape, so England might not be a totally unreasonable choice here).
Sydney Opera House: None/Sydney.
Taj Mahal: India.
Temple of Artemis: Greece (though located in present-day Turkey).
The Colossus: Greece.
Forbidden Palace: China.
Great Library: Greece/Egypt (built by Greeks in a Greek city, but one located both then and now in Egypt, and was built/prospered under the Greek-but-following-Egyptian-customs Ptolemies).
Great Lighthouse: Greece/Egypt (Ditto).
The Great Wall: China.
Hagia Sophia: Byzantium (although it had minarets put on by the Ottomans, and it was very important to the Ottomans, so a fair case could be made for it being both of theirs).
Hanging Gardens: Babylon (although some new evidence suggests it was actually in Nineveh, which would make it Persian).
Kremlin: Russia.
Louvre: France.
Oracle: Greece (and has one of the best quotes ever for its cut-scene ).
Porcelain Tower: China.
Pyramids: Egypt.
United Nations: None/America (it technically is in international land, and is obviously not "American).
Alhambra: Spain/Arabia (Andalusia=/= Morocco)
CN Tower: None (Canada IRL).
Great Firewall: China.
Great Mosque of Djenne: None/Songhai (it was built before the Songhai took the city over (probably), but it seems fair to assign it to them in the absence of any other West African civs. The current structure dates from 1907, though).
Hubble Space Telescope: America (they have too many wonders. With Greece it's justified, with America it isn't. But since it's an American game, I suppose it's expected).
Leaning Tower of Pisa: None (though often in Florentine territory).
Neuschwanstein: Germany.
Petra: Egypt/Rome (Located in Jordan, built by Egyptians, the temples built by a mixture of Nabateans and Romans).
Terracotta Army: China.
Borobudur: Indonesia.
Broadway: America (seriously, that does not deserve to be a wonder at all).
Glove Theatre: England.
Parthenon: Greece.
Prora: Germany.
Red Fort: India.
Uffizi: None/Florence.

And the nationals:
Circus Maximus: Rome.
East India Company: England/Netherlands.
Hermitage: Russia.
Oxford University: England.

And projects:
Apollo Program: America.
Manhattan Project: America (with help from other countries).

So the wonderless civs are:
Assyria: Library of Ashurbanipal.
Austria: Stephansdom.
Aztecs: Great Pyramid of Cholula.
Carthage: Byrsa Citadel.
Celts: Edinburgh Castle.
Denmark: Roskilde Cathedral
Ethiopia: Lalibela
Huns: There really isn't anything to put here. Sorry, Huns .
Iroquois: Ditto. Sorry, Iroquois .
Korea: Jongmyo/Gyeongbokgung.
Mongolia: Registan (shared with Samarkand).
Morocco: My knowledge is poor and Wiki has no answers.
Netherlands: Rijksmuseum.
Persia: Khaju Bridge.
Poland: Sukiennice.
Polynesia: Easter Island Statues (which conflicts with their UI, I know, but what else is there?).
Portugal: Jerónimos Monastery
Shoshone: Sorry Shoshone .
Siam: Ayutthaya (the whole thing, really, but maybe a specific temple).
Sweden: Visby.
Venice: Doge's Palace/ St Mark's/ A whole host of stuff.
Zulus: My knowledge is poor.

And the ambiguous:
Arabia: House of Wisdom.
Ottomans: Blue Mosque.
Spain: El Escorial.

 

[VainoValkea]

East India Company: England/Netherlands.

Or France, Denmark or Sweden. Probably the other European trading powers too. Having an East India Company was popular back them.

 

[Merciorum]

Or France, Denmark or Sweden. Probably the other European trading powers too. Having an East India Company was popular back them.

True, true.

 

[regalman]

though the mughals built the red fort and taj mahal
India could also have the golden temple, ajanta caves, madurai temple
Ottomans could have the topkapi palace or the dome of the rock

 

[Merciorum]

though the mughals built the red fort and taj mahal
India could also have the golden temple, ajanta caves, madurai temple
Ottomans could have the topkapi palace or the dome of the rock

Mughals are counted as Indian by the game.

 

[blackcatatonic]

An excellent Roman Wonder (though perhaps controversial since it wasn't built in Rome or even Italy) would be Hadrian's Wall. Otherwise, the Pantheon is a good choice.

 

[ehecatzin]

The Aztecs have been in every itineration of civ, yet they dont have a wonder. The obvious choice would be the Huei Teocalli (Templo Mayor).

This is just a minor peepe, but Chichen Itza should be named Temple of Kukulcan, Chichen Itza is the name of the city not the building.

 

[PhilBowles]

The Aztecs have been in every itineration of civ, yet they dont have a wonder. The obvious choice would be the Huei Teocalli (Templo Mayor).

This is just a minor peepe, but Chichen Itza should be named Temple of Kukulcan, Chichen Itza is the name of the city not the building.

The Wonder graphic in Civ V depicts the city (with some oddities like extra pyramids which have left no remains in reality, although they're tried to represent existing structures like the Temple of the Thousand Warriors as well as the Temple of Kukulcan); at least in this case, in Civ V they seem to be trying to correctly represent the well-recognised name. They've also adopted the "Forbidden Palace" rather than Civ IV's "Forbidden City". It's a bit of a downside that there's actually no named monument called the Forbidden Palace (the building shown is Tai He Dian, the Hall of Supreme Harmony), but it seems they're making an effort.

An exception is Petra, which takes the name of the city but depicts only the Treasury (al Khazneh) and the adjacent section of the Siq (and gets that wrong *grumble*)

Great Mosque of Djenne: None/Songhai (it was built before the Songhai took the city over (probably), but it seems fair to assign it to them in the absence of any other West African civs. The current structure dates from 1907, though).

It's the current structure that's the Wonder, and is colonial-era architecture adopting Sahelian themes (much as Kuala Lumpur's Abd al Samad Building is an "Islamicised" vision of the Palace of Westminster). While there were historical mosques on the site, the existing one is not a replica but a wholly French-designed building. So possibly France should get that one (if you also give the Statue of Liberty and Cristo Redentor to France on the same basis, that they were built by the French).

Hanging Gardens: Babylon (although some new evidence suggests it was actually in Nineveh, which would make it Persian)

It would make it Assyrian - Nineveh's the Assyrian second city in game. If it existed at all it was certainly of Babylonian rather than Persian construction.

Alhambra: Spain/Arabia (Andalusia=/= Morocco)

Spain based on current location, but certainly not Arabia. The dynasty that built it was Moroccan - not Berber, certainly, but Morocco represents the territory rather than the ethnicity, ditto Arabia - it's "Arabia" as in "Arabian Peninsula" not "ethnic Arab".

Petra: Egypt/Rome (Located in Jordan, built by Egyptians, the temples built by a mixture of Nabateans and Romans)

No relationship with the Egyptians at all. It was Nabatean based on Classical and Assyrian styles in its original heyday, and the capital of a Roman province during its second (and final) golden age. It was also later occupied by the Byzantines, and a Byzantine church and several Byzantine-modified temples are still visible. Al Khazneh itself is Nabatean.

Broadway: America (seriously, that does not deserve to be a wonder at all)

You pick up on this, but not the Pentagon or Prora? Broadway is certainly more of a cultural icon and tourist hub than either (and the original Wonders were basically drawn up as a list of tourist sites).

Aztecs: Great Pyramid of Cholula.

You could raise the same objection you have with others, such as Djenne or Stonehenge. The Cholula pyramid is not of Aztec construction; it predates the Aztecs, a culture with little if any tradition of monumental architecture, by centuries. Unlike the Great Mosque, it's not even at a site that was inhabited by the civ in question - Cholula was abandoned in the 8th Century according to Wikipedia, while the Aztecs arose in the early 15th.

Templo Mayor, already suggested, is a better option; it's associated with the Aztec capital and by extension with the Aztecs (and under a looser definition of "Aztec" as "Nahuatl-speaking people" rather than "the Aztec empire" can be considered an Aztec construction), and construction was probably ongoing during the Aztec imperial period, although the essential structure is pre-Aztec (dating to as early as 1325).

Polynesia: Easter Island Statues (which conflicts with their UI, I know, but what else is there?).

Your proposed Assyrian one conflicts with their UI as well.

Siam: Ayutthaya (the whole thing, really, but maybe a specific temple).

Wat Pra Si Samphet is the most iconic.

 

[VainoValkea]

Chichen Itza is actually a city in the game, in the Maya list naturally, all the more reason to change it to refer to the temple.

Also, I'm not sure if Kremlin is a running gag already or if they are really that clueless.

 

[otaman1]

How about the Leaning Tower of Pisa?

Built by the Italians, or Tuscany, not Romans. Arguably Renaissance Italy

The Sistine Chapel?

Built by the Italians, or Florentine, not Romans. Arguably Renaissance Italy

The Colosseum (the real one) also only exists in Rome.

The Colosseum was an amphitheatre, so you could also argue that the amphitheatre should be Roman or Greek.

 

[VainoValkea]

Well like CN Tower is a special broadcast tower and Hanging Gardens is a special garden, I think Colosseum could be a special amphitheatre. Because that thing is worthy of being a wonder, really. It had a massive entertainment capacity and was an engineering masterpiece with very limited technology. There are accounts of it being even filled with water for sea combat re-enactments. And it remains a massive tourist attraction today, standing the test of time mostly intact.

 

[PhilBowles]

Chichen Itza is actually a city in the game, in the Maya list naturally, all the more reason to change it to refer to the temple.

Angkor Wat was both a temple (correctly) and a city (incorrectly) in Civ IV - the developers don't much seem to mind this kind of overlap.

Also, I'm not sure if Kremlin is a running gag already or if they are really that clueless.

Since they're known to monitor Civfanatics and this has been pointed out multiple times - and vocally - since the Civ IV error, I'm inclined to suspect the latter. I don't think name recognition is much argument here: St Basil's is a name as well-recognised as those of some of the game's Wonders.

Possibly it's a homage to Call to Power, as that did the same thing and included "The Kremlin" as a Wonder before any of the Civ games?

 

[Peng Qi]

You forgot Venice, and Alhambra should be under Morocco.

 

[Merciorum]

It's the current structure that's the Wonder, and is colonial-era architecture adopting Sahelian themes (much as Kuala Lumpur's Abd al Samad Building is an "Islamicised" vision of the Palace of Westminster). While there were historical mosques on the site, the existing one is not a replica but a wholly French-designed building. So possibly France should get that one (if you also give the Statue of Liberty and Cristo Redentor to France on the same basis, that they were built by the French).

Ah, thanks. Wasn't aware of the extent of the later influences.

It would make it Assyrian - Nineveh's the Assyrian second city in game. If it existed at all it was certainly of Babylonian rather than Persian construction.

I'm too used to G+K, it seems .

Spain based on current location, but certainly not Arabia. The dynasty that built it was Moroccan - not Berber, certainly, but Morocco represents the territory rather than the ethnicity, ditto Arabia - it's "Arabia" as in "Arabian Peninsula" not "ethnic Arab".

I suppose so, as the Idrisids were of Moroccan extraction, but it was still an Andalusian state...

No relationship with the Egyptians at all. It was Nabatean based on Classical and Assyrian styles in its original heyday, and the capital of a Roman province during its second (and final) golden age. It was also later occupied by the Byzantines, and a Byzantine church and several Byzantine-modified temples are still visible. Al Khazneh itself is Nabatean.

The original city was founded by the Egyptians, though, even if its current iteration is Nabatean and Roman.

You pick up on this, but not the Pentagon or Prora? Broadway is certainly more of a cultural icon and tourist hub than either (and the original Wonders were basically drawn up as a list of tourist sites).

Yeah, Prora is even worse and the Pentagon is just as bad. I just happened to comment on that one. Broadway is a tourist hub, but no more than the West End. Outside of America, it isn't a particularly well-known icon.

You could raise the same objection you have with others, such as Djenne or Stonehenge. The Cholula pyramid is not of Aztec construction; it predates the Aztecs, a culture with little if any tradition of monumental architecture, by centuries. Unlike the Great Mosque, it's not even at a site that was inhabited by the civ in question - Cholula was abandoned in the 8th Century according to Wikipedia, while the Aztecs arose in the early 15th.

Templo Mayor, already suggested, is a better option; it's associated with the Aztec capital and by extension with the Aztecs (and under a looser definition of "Aztec" as "Nahuatl-speaking people" rather than "the Aztec empire" can be considered an Aztec construction), and construction was probably ongoing during the Aztec imperial period, although the essential structure is pre-Aztec (dating to as early as 1325).

Wat Pra Si Samphet is the most iconic.

OK, fair enough. I'm not particularly knowledgeable on the Aztecs at all.

Your proposed Assyrian one conflicts with their UI as well.

True, and the same reason applies there.

 

[Blitz Spearman]

Given the problems that Brazil has with low production because of jungle bias, the Itaipu Dam would be a cool addition

 

[PhilBowles]

Ah, thanks. Wasn't aware of the extent of the later influences.

It seems that it's debated to some degree how much can be considered colonial and how much Sahelian - from Wikipedia:

it appears the position of at least some of the outer walls follows those of the original mosque but it is unclear as to whether the columns supporting the roof kept to the previous arrangement. What was almost certainly novel in the rebuilt mosque was the symmetric arrangement of three large towers in the qibla wall. There has been debate as to what extent the design of the rebuilt mosque was subject to French influence

Superficially at least, the structure has a strong European flavour - right angles and columns don't seem to be prominent in traditional Sahelian architecture, and as a whole the mosque's outlines resemble a Gothic cathedral more than an Islamic or African tradition. Wikipedia relates competing views, but the basis for the suggestion that the structure is African in essential design - made by someone who wasn't even born until 1940, while someone contemporary with the French mosque's construction and who had mapped the pre-existing ruins considered it an almost wholly French design - isn't made clear.

The original city was founded by the Egyptians, though, even if its current iteration is Nabatean and Roman.

I can't find any reference to an Egyptian connection in a quick online search, nor in any of the books I picked up at the site last year. Its development as the Nabatean capital was contemporary with the Egyptian 18th Dynasty, but it wasn't under Egyptian control and a settlement had existed at the site for much longer.

Yeah, Prora is even worse and the Pentagon is just as bad. I just happened to comment on that one. Broadway is a tourist hub, but no more than the West End. Outside of America, it isn't a particularly well-known icon.

I'm not sure I'd say that. The original theatre's well over a century and a half old and it's a feature of New York probably not much less iconic than the statue (which is about 40 years younger). No more than the West End, sure, but if Wikipedia's to be believed (which surely it must be, sometimes) both rank among the most prominent modern theatres in the world.

Come to that I'd question the Globe's place - the original theatre was very short-lived and notable for its association with Shakespeare rather than its own merits (and a rebuilt one in the early 17th Century was deliberately demolished). The new one is a 1990s replica. The Globe as a Wonder seems something of a holdover from the days of Newton's College, Darwin's Theory or Leonardo's Workshop, before Civ had the Great People mechanic to recognise key historical figures other than as Wonders with which they were associated.

 

[godman85]

Mongolia and the Huns were too busy conquering, pillaging, and razing buildings and wonders rather than building them.

Mongolia created the first international trade routes stretching from rome to china. It was the first protected route across the world and it had checkpoints and security.


Whatever the mongolian word for this is should be the name of the wonder. Bonuses should be

Trade routes to cities in your empires will generate half the gold they would if they connected to the nearest city state.

Now mongolia, if they focus on getting this, can warmonger and not be decimated by trade embargoes.

 

[dexters]

The question to ask is, is the game served in anyway to have a rule to have 1 wonder by Civ?

I think its fine to diversity and in a way, Civilization has moved to a more global and inclusive position on wonders (anyone remember the Civ2 list? even Civ3 was very American centric).

 

[SnowKomodo]

Is having a wonder (or any piece of impressive architecture whether currently erect or already crumbled) validation of being a "worthy" civilization within the Civ franchise?

It just so happens to be that the Civs with dubious "Civilization" status - or at least frequently cited as so by many CFC members - are also the ones that don't have known wonders either in-game or known of out of the game: Shoshone, Zulu, Huns, might be missing a few more

Note: I actually think all civs are worthy of inclusion. Just throwing the idea out there for discussion

 

[Falconiano]

These are already in the game and were only built after the Roman era.

So?
The Eiffel Tower was build after the Napoleon era but it still belongs to France.
Nations in Europe have changed their shape, name and territories a lot; Frenchies used to be Franks, Italians used to be Romans etc.

And I forgot the Uffizi btw. Rome/Greece are probably the civ with the most wonders.
France comes close tho.