EmpireofVirtue
Warlord
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for All."
Should the EU constitution mention the Christian Church
- Thread starter r4ge
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"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for All."
Yago
came undone
Yeah, but as far as I know, that's not the constitution. 
By the way, "under god" being an abonimation from the 50's.
By the way, "under god" being an abonimation from the 50's.
Mentioning Christianity in the Constitution of the EU has to do with the self-conseption of the EU: some wanted it to be mentioned as one of the roots of European identity besides Greek-Roman philosophies and Enlightenment. The problem is that it can be used to prevent coutries like Turkey from joining the EU: that's why I'm against it.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
Turkey was more than nominally Christian for quite a while before the Ottomans moved in.
Mentioning the religion as part of a common historical and cultural heritage doesn't mean that it violates any separation between Church and State. No matter how hard ye click yer heels and wish, the past cannot be changed.
Mentioning the religion as part of a common historical and cultural heritage doesn't mean that it violates any separation between Church and State. No matter how hard ye click yer heels and wish, the past cannot be changed.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
Going by the Bible, the answer would have to be no. Jesus himself says, "My kingdom is no part of this earth."
Aphex_Twin
Evergreen
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2002
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That was quite unexpected, FL2 
Yago
came undone
I think the mentioning of christianity would also worry many christians. Because some christians faiths believe, that the state should not mix in questions of belief. Therefore a state which has ties to one or some churches is very questionable from a christian stand-point.
ComradeDavo
Formerly God
SICKNESS?
You have been well and truly brainwashed into the ways of relgion if you feel the need to insult everyone who doesn't believe in the things you do.
As you can probably guess, I am firmly against any mention of god in a European constitustion, due largely to the fact I don't beilve in god.
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
I believe so. I find the rising muslim demographic in Europe to be alarming. If it takes Christianity to keep the traditional European culture in the vast majority then so be it.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
Originally posted by EmpireofVirtue
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for All."
Point one: That's not in the Constitution. Read it for yourself; you won't find anything like that in there.
Point two: The phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance long after the Pledge itself was written, and its addition has never been universally accepted.
Point three: You don't have to be a religious person to have a strong and decent set of morals. Many kind and just people are agnostic or atheist, so your argument about good and evil falls.
Moving on to address the original question, my answer would be an emphatic "no". As an American, I'll say that the writers of our Constitution made a conscious decision not to mention God, and I think that has been nothing but good for our country. We have had periods of strong intolerance in our nation's history, and if our Constitution gave preference to one religion or another, I can guarantee you that non-practitioners of the preferred religion would have had a much worse time of it here. It would have given the government a legal excuse to persecute innocent people. That tends to happen in any country where a particular religion has official government backing.
I am a firm believer in the idea that Church and State must be separated. I truly feel that in today's world, any nation that wishes to call itself civilized must not allow its laws to give preference to any religion.
aaminion00
Stoned
Originally posted by EmpireofVirtue
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for All."
Funny you should mentino that. The word god only came in during the 50's in order to seperate the United States from the totalitarian and extremely secular U.S.S.R.
Nope. Completely wrong.
A common historical and cultural heritage right now. The European Union however was not created to be solely for European countries, and thus may soon contain significant areas that do not share the same historical and cultural heritage as they do. As the European Union wasn't created based on any specific religion there's really no need to mention any specific god either.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
Well . . . it depends on your criteria. Mr Darkshade's statement was uncharacteristically vague, but arguments could be made either way.
The Turks themselves were never a Christian people, and it was the conquest of the region by the Ottomans that insured modern Turkey would be a Muslim nation rather than a Christian one. (The Seljuq Turks, also Muslims, were there first. But they never controlled the entire region, and their hold was tenuous. It was the Ottomans that completed and consolidated Turkish control of the region.)
The region we now call Turkey was quite Christian before the Turks got there. It was a significant portion of the Byzantine Empire, and was therefore an Orthodox Christian nation.
Of course, it wasn't called Turkey at the time, and if the Byzantines had held been able to hold on to it, it wouldn't be called Turkey today. It's called Turkey because the Turks conquered it, but the Turks were Muslims when they got there. So in the sense of "Turkey" as "the nation of the Turks", that was never a Christian nation. But if we equate "Turkey" with "Anatolia", then it must be said that Anatolia was thoroughly Christian for centuries.
Pontiuth Pilate
Republican Jesus!
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for All."
"Under God" was added in 1954 by one of Joe McCarthy's neophytes to reassure backwater Americans that this was still a nation of red-blooded, bullet-headed Christians, not godless commies. The original pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist preacher who also happened to be a socialist. He originally wanted to end the Pledge with "with liberty, equality, and fraternity for all", ie, the Jacobin pledge which was the motto of the French Revolution [which was nearing its centennial when he wrote the Pledge]. He scrapped it because, as he said, "We're a thousand years away from that."
"Under God" was added in 1954 by one of Joe McCarthy's neophytes to reassure backwater Americans that this was still a nation of red-blooded, bullet-headed Christians, not godless commies. The original pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist preacher who also happened to be a socialist. He originally wanted to end the Pledge with "with liberty, equality, and fraternity for all", ie, the Jacobin pledge which was the motto of the French Revolution [which was nearing its centennial when he wrote the Pledge]. He scrapped it because, as he said, "We're a thousand years away from that."
aaminion00
Stoned
That's exactly my point.
Well Mr. Darkshade can feel free to track down the remaining survivors of a dark age christian empire and make their voice heard if he wishes, but I would think this would be completely irrelevent. After all, Europe was thoroughly pagan for centuries. And the United States of America was a bunch of nature-worshipping mysticists for millenia. And Australia...
Sounds stupid doesn't it?
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Pontiuth Pilate is at least the 5th person to point out the "under God" had been added in the 50's. My question would be then : Do you, american citizens, want to keep that or would you support the idea to remove it from the pledge of allegiance ?
PS : I hope it's not what EoV meant but I'm 100% against a "pledge of allegiance" to the European flag.
PS : I hope it's not what EoV meant but I'm 100% against a "pledge of allegiance" to the European flag.
aaminion00
Stoned
The problem is that thanks to McCarthy and systematic repeating of it in school for half a century, 99% of Americans feel that this was always in the pledge of allegiance. Any attempt to take it out seems like a ploy by 'dem *****y athysts to tarnish our humble god fearin' nation, as witnessed last year when a similar situation arose in California.
Pontiuth Pilate
Republican Jesus!
It's a moot point. Americans, in lieu of something else in their government to be thankful for, are rabid nationalists. Even in California. The kind of cultural decentralization that has gone on in Europe ever since 1968 would be unimaginable here. I'm a radical on the left and even I got a little uneasy when you refused to pledge allegiance to the flag of your own union. The Pledge will never be changed because open atheism is an eyebrow-raiser in all but select enclaves in the USA. Of course, every loyal American [either east of the Rockies, west of the Appalachians, or south of Maryland] seems to think that removing "under God" would be a formal endorsement of atheism. Just like they thought that passing the Equal Rights Amendment would lead to the disintegration of American society. Sadly, we have to live with these people. That's why many of the rest of us are so enthusiastic about the EU experiment. Please, don't ruin it by pandering to religious activists. You can see where that got US.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
True. Anatolia's Roman past doesn't make it any more Christian today than Egypt or Libya. Turkey today is no more Christian than Mexico is a nation of Quetzalcoatl worshippers. Thanks to the Turks, it has been a Muslim country for a very long time, though it's a remarkably secular one.
I want it removed. The reasons it was put in were stupid enough, but even if it had always been there, I resent my government making me proclaim loyalty to God every time I pledge allegiance to my country. So yes, I want it removed. And yes, I did skip the "under God" section every morning when we said the Pledge in school. I will pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, and I'll do it proudly, but I will not pretend as I do so that I am a monotheist. I am not a monotheist, and I have a Constitutional right to not be a monotheist if I so choose. But I believe that vows, oaths, and pledges are sacred, and so I will not make one if I can't stand behind the wording of it.
EmpireofVirtue
Warlord
Of course you're against any respect to your nation and to what it has given to you. You're just a despising selfish faithless socialist atheist. I have no respect for cynical people like you. I won't do anymore comment in here since I'm stunned of what I have to read.
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