Should the Pueblo be in Civ V?

[Drawmeus]

If Egyptians were offended, we'd still want Egypt in, right?

I understand Firaxis's decision and would probably have made the same decision in their shoes, but I think the Pueblo people are in the wrong on this. You don't get to opt out of being a part of history. I can see asking for a financial consideration from Firaxis and I can definitely see working with Firaxis to make sure that the representation of the Pueblo people is an accurate representation - both with the written and visual elements and in crafting gameplay that pushes people to play the Pueblo in a way that is in line with Pueblo values - but demanding not to be included... this is one of the ways people are learning about world cultures, and opting out just means that that many more people will be that much more ignorant of your culture.

It works out in this case only because the Pueblo are on the fringe of what we'd consider a viable civilization anyway; they're not a slam dunk inclusion like Egypt would be.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

If the Pueblo were against it so much that Firaxis opted not to go down that road, then it's probably best that the Pueblo are not a civ.

Yeah, it's a shame that they probably won't be ncluded, though it's nice to know they bother asking (or at least are willing to listen).

 

[MisterSaturnine]

I would definitely want Pueblo in, but only if it were implemented in a way that the people would be happy with. I know they're uncomfortable with photographs, but I would hope there's some wiggle room between a photograph and a computer-generated imitation of his original form. Still, if they can't reach an agreement, I would be equally happy with another Native American civ, as long as they were implemented in a way as interesting as the Pueblo - I love the idea of mountain cities so it'd take something pretty cool to make me not miss it.

 

[God of Kings]

I just learned that there are public statues of Popé in Washington, D.C. and in New Mexico.

Spoilered to respect the Pueblo's wishes, yet posted the images for those who are curious

Spoiler :

 

[SolInvictus]

I'm neutral because my desire to see the Pueblo included is canceled by my desire to respect the Pueblo Council's wishes.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm neutral because my desire to see the Pueblo included is canceled by my desire to respect the Pueblo Council's wishes.

Same for me

 

[Leugi]

Yes, I think they should be in the game to spread knowledge of their culture, but if they are offended by the fact of being in a game, I think Firaxis made the right decsion, both morally and legally.

Quoted for Truth, and thus I vote neutral...

 

[Snoopaloop]

They should be in the game, and they should be in the game.

More images of Popey :

Spoiler :

Why does this episode of South Park keep coming to mind?

 

[Securion]

No, but not because of the "controversy". I just dont want any more "Disney Civs" in the game. Polynesia, Celts, Iroquoi, etc are enough.

Add something from the south east asian area instead...?

 

[Pouakai]

Wait, I'm sorry. Disney civs?

 

[lp_04]

They shoule be. For historical purposes (and would be a cool civ). I think they will have more work but they can found a common ground where the civ is possible. Like changing the leader. I'll be hgonest, I don't know many things about them (or any other native american culture) and I would like to know. Civilopedia is like a place where you can jump to real historical subjects (at least for me) and another native american culture in civ would be a way to learn more (I've learned a lot about the iroquois).

This "learning" thing could be good for the culture they're trying to protect because people would get to know them and protect them as well. I see no incovenient (maby tourism associated to this but...)

If the only problem is the leader, change it (it can be difficult but all the other civs have at least 5 leaders in line, why don't use the 2nd in the line for this civ?)

Beside that, I support the cultural demarcation of the Native American people and appreciate the sensability of Firaxis, the deveolpers are becoming anthropologists as well (in a small way) and that's awsom

 

[Leugi]

No, but not because of the "controversy". I just dont want any more "Disney Civs" in the game. Polynesia, Celts, Iroquoi, etc are enough.

Add something from the south east asian area instead...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Pueblo_Peoples

I'd daresay that the Pueblo weren't really a "Disney Civ", they had a complex society, settlements and even warfare... They could make a strong civilization...

I do believe more south-east asia should be added, though... But the Pueblo certainly had everything for an amazing civ ingame...

Wait, I'm sorry. Disney civs?

It's his way of calling "societies-with-different-but-not-necessarily-worse-kinds-of-social-organization-than-the-typical-model" of civilizations, like societies that didn't have an specific location, were sedentary, didn't have strong technological researches, didn't have a strong trading, etc...

It has already spurred a lot of controversy in this thread, from about post #50

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=491863&page=3

So yeah, I don't think there's need of making the same discussion on this thread...

 

[God of Kings]

I'm neutral because my desire to see the Pueblo included is canceled by my desire to respect the Pueblo Council's wishes.

Same. This is the real reason why I am neutral.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

I'm curious, are there any articles or sources about this issue? I'd be interesting to read the reasons which the Pueblo tribal council gave. Their civilization was and still is one of the most remarkable Native American cultures.

An overwhelming majority of the people living in modern day Mexico are the descendants of the Mayans. That doesn't make Mexico the Mayan Empire though.

Not at all Mexico is made up of Mayans, Aztecs, Zapotecs, Chichimecs and a bunch of other ethnic groups, and Mexico is also disproportionately influenced by a white Spanish elite. Guatemala and Belize also includes half of the descendants of the Mayans

 

[jabbawackybacky]

If Egyptians were offended, we'd still want Egypt in, right?

I understand Firaxis's decision and would probably have made the same decision in their shoes, but I think the Pueblo people are in the wrong on this. You don't get to opt out of being a part of history. I can see asking for a financial consideration from Firaxis and I can definitely see working with Firaxis to make sure that the representation of the Pueblo people is an accurate representation - both with the written and visual elements and in crafting gameplay that pushes people to play the Pueblo in a way that is in line with Pueblo values - but demanding not to be included... this is one of the ways people are learning about world cultures, and opting out just means that that many more people will be that much more ignorant of your culture.

It works out in this case only because the Pueblo are on the fringe of what we'd consider a viable civilization anyway; they're not a slam dunk inclusion like Egypt would be.

Consider the fact that Arabs don't have Mohammad as the leaderhead, when he is clearly the most singularly influential Arab leader in history. There is a good reason for this - Arab Muslims find the depiction of Mohammad to be idolatrous if not blasphemous, hence he was not depicted.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

I really wanted a Pueblo Civ and I was thinking it would be fun to make it on the civ creator, but if a sufficient number of the Pueblo people don't want it then we should respect that, so I voted neutral.

Edit - an admin should combine my multiple posts

 

[VainoValkea]

Pueblos would be a better candidate than the Shoshone, and I would like to have them instead of Shoshone. However, I don't think there's any great injustice being done by their current exclusion, so neutral.

 

[jabbawackybacky]

No, but not because of the "controversy". I just dont want any more "Disney Civs" in the game. Polynesia, Celts, Iroquoi, etc are enough.

Um, what??? "Disney civs"??? I guess you like to piss on the cultural and political achievements of great peoples like the iroquois (you didnt even google how to spell their name properly!) or the pueblo? I don't know if it's racism, cultural elitism or something in between but it's quite pathetic

 

[True_Candyman]

Holy mother of necro-post batman!

Unfortunately this issue is already closed, at least for civ v

Here's hoping for some more negotiation for their inclusion in civ VI!

 

[pozz]

Yes, I think they should be in the game to spread knowledge of their culture, but if they are offended by the fact of being in a game, I think Firaxis made the right decsion, both morally and legally.

I'm in agreement with this sentiment. I think Pueblo deserves to be in the game (so does a handful or two more cultures) but if they are against depicting of their dead I think Firaxis should leave them out. One could of course make up a leader for them, but I feel like that would be an insult to the culture.

We will never see all civilizations people would like in the game, so skipping Pueblo because of cultural/religious ideals is a good decision.

Um, what??? "Disney civs"??? I guess you like to piss on the cultural and political achievements of great peoples like the iroquois (you didnt even google how to spell their name properly!) or the pueblo? I don't know if it's racism, cultural elitism or something in between but it's quite pathetic

Lack of education might be a better bet