Should the Vanguard unit return?

[mystikx21]

Converting promotions isn't hard by class. Though it is annoying to have to do I grant, and that they didn't fix it themselves for the expansion at least is just plain silly. (That they didn't have a ranged mobile or submarine class is also).

Changing some of the illogical UU promo lines also isn't hard. huns can upgrade to trebs instead of pikes.

 

[Babri]

Changing some of the illogical UU promo lines also isn't hard. huns can upgrade to trebs instead of pikes.

Rams always upgraded to trebuchets since they were introduced in G&K expansion.



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[Zaldron]

Scout -> horsemen -> knights ->lancers -> tanks...

Just remember, when allowing scouts to promote you have to be *really* careful someone doesn't build a bunch of scouts early and get them scout-only promotions (I'm looking at you, ignore-terrain-cost, among others). Then when you promote them BAM you have a bunch of ITC horses or whatever, that can be upgraded forever.

 

[mystikx21]

Rams always upgraded to trebuchets since they were introduced in G&K expansion.



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Yeah, I had forgotten that. We had some kind of debate about the UU replacement shifting over to be an early catapult so Huns could have spears and I got confused.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Just to bring us all back on track.
The thread is a question on the pros/cons of the Vanguard line of units.

All the existing units can be used effectively in whatever grouping you want to be an effective military force.

So its not a case of which existing unit upgrades to which new unit it is whether or not the role of a 'vanguard' is needed.

To me it is YES.

The straight up fighter line is there. As is the mounted unit. The ranged units are good and there are good siege units.

The anti-mounted line serves its role well but as many have said it can almost be the default unit for anything. It is strong enough to handle almost any situation.

Where I see a need for the vanguard is not as an offensive unit but a recon/support unit.

Later on, especially when Lancers come along, the anti-mobile unit is a quick, 'hunt 'em down' unit designed to be fast and deadly.
It is not something you would want to be burdened down with the role of supporting slow siege weapons.

To protect them really does need a specialist to protect and assist.

Also the division of promotions in the variuos roles also allows for some unique units.
I had a thought last night about the role of forward observers in modern warfare.
You know those guys that 'paint' a target for artillery or bombing raids.
What if we had a promotion like that (probably tier 6) that provides an instakill for artillery, bombers & missiles against any enemy it is adjacent to.

To get a unit that close and sustain any damage before it does "its thing" is a specialist job, not well suited to existing units. But if we had buffed defensive units with average attack that could move forward to recon and target that might fulfil the 'vanguard' role.

 

[Tomice]

I think I got it!
What about a light cavalry line?

Scout-(classic light horse)-(medieval light horse)-lancer-(industrial light vehicle)-gunship?

Each of these makes sense in the scouting role (and healing, if desired). The number of newly added units would be tolerable. "Ignore terrain cost" would be for the basic scout only, all later units would get raw movement points. The "counter" role would be dropped, it isn't necessary.



The 5 upgrade lines would be:

• Light Cavalry (see above)
• Heavy Cavalry (horseman-knight-cavalry-landship-tank-armor-GDR)
• Support fire (archer-compbow-crossbow-gatling-machinegun-bazooka)
• Siege
• Ressourceless Infantry (warrior-spear-pike-musket-rifle-ww2infantry-infantry)

What's left?

Swormen and Longswords could merge with the ressourceless infantry line after gunpowder - probably the easiest way and my personal choice (*).

Currently "lost" units:
-Marine
-Paratrooper/XCOM
-AT gun
-chariot archer

(*) Or we create a full elite (ressource?) line of infantry. With this line, we could also pick up lost units like the marine or paratrooper and maybe bridge the gap with some sort of grenadier unit. But that's probably too complicated.

I thought about this idea a bit further, especially about the ressource-related criticism.

1. If we made this proposed new line ressourceless, it would be unintuitive, as the new units would look like horses. Also, we could spam them just like we did with vanguards (and the AI did even more so).
2. If the new units needed horses, they would be undesireable compared to the stronger heavy cavalry like knights.

A possible solution: make knight-style cavalry need both horses and iron, or 2 horses (like some units need 2 uranium).

Comments?

 

[xInVicTuSx]

I don't find heavy cavalry to be useful enough to require multiple resources to build if we make said resources rarer.

I don't think we need vanguards. Regular troops serve warmaking fine, and if you don't make them for defense you should be punished. Having cheaper more mobile defensive "cannon fodder" troops is not really needed. Last thing we need is a bunch of trash units slowing the game down in more ways than one. :/

 

[Tomice]

Of course the total amount of horses on the map should be fitted to this. And the ressource cost of "half a horse" is actually meant to make them non-spammable.

Maybe it would even work if both heavy and light horses needed 1 horse - light horses just need to be useful enough with sight promotions and other stuff heavy horses couldn't get. Withdraw from melee would especially be interesting in combination with reduced damage from ranged attacks.

We could make them low-strenght, combat-avoiding units. They'd be very survivable while scouting, but quickly dead when stuck between many other units where they can't retreat/avoid combat.

 

[xInVicTuSx]

Hmmm, I would use that. I already use one horse for scouting anyway, but a Knight with the +1 sight range isn't as good as what you're describing. Particularly good as a spotter when indirect fire is coming into play.

 

[Babri]

Of course the total amount of horses on the map should be fitted to this. And the ressource cost of "half a horse" is actually meant to make them non-spammable.

Maybe it would even work if both heavy and light horses needed 1 horse - light horses just need to be useful enough with sight promotions and other stuff heavy horses couldn't get. Withdraw from melee would especially be interesting in combination with reduced damage from ranged attacks.

We could make them low-strenght, combat-avoiding units. They'd be very survivable while scouting, but quickly dead when stuck between many other units where they can't retreat/avoid combat.

Why not just one cavalry class which you can specialise either for combat or scouting/healing. Currently cavalry units role is kind of limited as they have hard counters (pikes/anti-tank). So giving them an extra role would increase their usefulness.

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[Tomice]

Why not just one cavalry class which you can specialise either for combat or scouting/healing. Currently cavalry units role is kind of limited as they have hard counters (pikes/anti-tank). So giving them an extra role would increase their usefulness.

1) In my suggestion, counter units would drop out. The line was always a bit strange with a lot of shifting/blurry roles (e.g. fast/slow) and an overall limited popularity. Spears and Pikes would become the standard, ressourceless early infantry, while lancers and gunships would be used for lategame light infantry.
--> Heavy cavalry would surely not be less desireable.

2) Diversity is fun! The two cavalry lines would have massive differences and totally seperate roles.

3) If we use a ressource (horses/oil) for two unit lines, we could make it more common on the map (less likeness to get none at all, better balance), but it would still be rare and precious.

4) Some promotions associated with scouts/vanguards could be very overpowered if allowed on strong, elite combat units. Some combinations of promotions can be overpowered. Separating the allowed promotions on 2 unit lines avoids these problems.

5) It is easier to teach the AI how to use units if a type of unit has a clearly defined role. If a certain type of role is only available with carefully selected promotions, the AI would have a hard time taking the right choices (So would inexperienced players).

6) Scouting knights or tanks seem weird.

7) If we have visually distinct light and heavy cavalry, you can immediately see the role the particular unit has. It is tiresome to always check the promotions to see which unit is your scouting cavalry/tank and which your combat cavalry/tank.


To sum up my suggestion in one sentence:
To replace the counter line and the vanguard line with a light cavalry line that is non-spammable (uses horses/oil) and is designed to avoid combat, not to be part of the main army.
Combat roles: Scouting and recon, eventually healing.

Upgrade paths:





Combat role overview:



(I didn't seperate iron and non-iron infantry in this overview, but the ressource units would surely be better at offense)

For comparison, Thal's original version:

 

[Babri]

Just remember, when allowing scouts to promote you have to be *really* careful someone doesn't build a bunch of scouts early and get them scout-only promotions (I'm looking at you, ignore-terrain-cost, among others). Then when you promote them BAM you have a bunch of ITC horses or whatever, that can be upgraded forever.

No-terrain penalty can be a silver promo as even with rough terrain horses can move at equal speed as scouts with no terrain penalty. The only exceptions are rivers & forested hills. This will be compensated by faster movement in clear terrain by horses due to higher .

 

[JE_McKellar]

@Tomice: You could put the chariot archer as the classical scout upgrade, a new horse-archer/mounted xbow as the medieval, and then swap the lancer and cavalry for the Renaissance.

I've found that if you give a mounted unit a ranged combat value, but not the "only defensive" promotion, then it will default to melee attack. So you could give the dragoon/cavalry a modest ranged attack, say 16, and players could use it a true armed reconnaissance role while the AI still uses it to aggressively attack.

For the industrial era, you could make an armored car or jeep to replace the cavalry, maybe use the unit graphics from the modern general, basically a MG on wheels.