Should the Vanguard unit return?

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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This one is a contentious issue for me, so i thought i would open the discussion. Again i hope we don't reach consensus for a while, but i wanted to get the ball rolling.

The vanguard unit line represented a lot of community work. New graphics, promotions, tons of discussion. For many it would seem like a lot of wasted effort if they were not returned.

But I'll be honest, i was never really sold on the vanguard line. I always thought some of their abilities could be packaged in existing units, and there there balance went from most powerful units in the game that i would never not build to i'll never build them except in specialist cases.

When we talk about that blurry line between improving the core game and making a new game, this one for me fits firmly on the later....and i don't know if it really is an improvement.

So...lets open the flood gates and get the discussion started.
 
Yes.

Actually, sorry, make that a yes yes.

Along with City State Conquest Rewards and better UI, one of the best features of VEM/GEM. Fills in roles that are desperate needed and fixes counter units such as pikes and spears making strategic units such as longswords and swords being redundant.

Anyway, my opinion can be summed up as follows:

 
My quick thoughts.

Less is more. What unique role did the vanguard fulfill? a) upgrade path for scouts, b) defensive unit besides the spear line that is not the spear, costs no ressource and could take on the healing role. But it's very similar to the spear (in the early eras).

Thesis: If we can balance melee, mobiles and spears in relation to each other, we don't need vanguards.

The special abilities it provides can be taken over by promotion (instead of the rough/flat thingy).
Basic + Speed/Sight = Scout/Vanguard
Basic + Anti-Mobile = Spear
Basic + Healing = Vanguard

Mobile units aren't so good that they needtheir specific counter in my mind...

But the scout does need a upgrade, that's for sure. You can't kick the vanguard out and not replace it with something.
 
Thesis: If we can balance melee, mobiles and spears in relation to each other, we don't need vanguards.

The special abilities it provides can be taken over by promotion (instead of the rough/flat thingy).
Basic + Speed/Sight = Scout/Vanguard
Basic + Anti-Mobile = Spear
Basic + Healing = Vanguard

Mitsho summed up my thoughts very well. I always thought we abandoned the retooling angle too early in favor of a brand new concept.
 
I personally love the vanguard unit line.

The only issue I see with Mitsho's above suggestion of combining vanguard/spear is that the vanguard units and spear units are easily differential by looks/name in GEM which is much easier for the player so we dont have to constantly look at each unit to find that one/two units that have the healing upgrades etc. which we would have to based on the above concept I think.
 
I think the vanguard line ended up making the core resourceless melee line too uninteresting (spear, pike, arquebus, musket, rifle, etc.)

These units are much more interesting and flavorful, I'd prefer to see those than vanguards.

It also didn't help that the AI tended to massively overbuild vanguards, and thus was terrible on offense.
It just had lots of cluttered weak units that didn't do much damage.

Just let the scout upgrade into a spear, and have more specialized promotions available on the melee line.
 
I think the vanguard line ended up making the core resourceless melee line too uninteresting (spear, pike, arquebus, musket, rifle, etc.)

These units are much more interesting and flavorful, I'd prefer to see those than vanguards.

It also didn't help that the AI tended to massively overbuild vanguards, and thus was terrible on offense.
It just had lots of cluttered weak units that didn't do much damage.

Just let the scout upgrade into a spear, and have more specialized promotions available on the melee line.

I agree that spears become a little bland with vanguard and are more interesting. The thing is that having spearmen being healers/scouts etc seems a bit strange. At least for me.
 
Could the scout just remain as is, and then get a reskin similar to how workers work?

Is there any reason a scout needs to upgrade?
 
Just so it's not a dead end.

I can see it upgrading to the pike though.

The problem though is that the ressource - no ressource distinction falls away with Arquebusiers...

So one solution is to have two "infantries", the heavy line (warrior to Sword to Muskets) and one support line (Scout/Spear to Levy to Pike to Skirmisher to Anti-Tank - whereas you can move around the names Spear, Levy and so on as you wish).
 
Just so it's not a dead end.

I can see it upgrading to the pike though.

The problem though is that the ressource - no ressource distinction falls away with Arquebusiers...

So one solution is to have two "infantries", the heavy line (warrior to Sword to Muskets) and one support line (Scout/Spear to Levy to Pike to Skirmisher to Anti-Tank - whereas you can move around the names Spear, Levy and so on as you wish).

Sounds like a good idea. Make the Spear line a more general skirmish/helper line, and Swords and Muskets the heavy melee line.
 
Greater challenges should earn greater rewards. It's more challenging to mix unit types than spam one unit, so combined arms should be most effective.

We want to reward players for building a mixed force like this:

  • 2 siege units - catapults
  • 2 strategic slow - swords
  • 2 strategic fast - horses
  • 2 anti-mounted - spears
  • 4 common range - archers
  • 4 common melee - ???

Swords and horses are our strategic units. We want those rare so we can't just spam swords (or we'd have no combined arms). If strategics are rare, what do we build as the mass of our army? We need common resourceless melee footsoldiers who fight on the front lines. These are the front guard (vanguard). If vanguards don't exist we can only build 2-3 melee soldiers per army, which would obviously not be much fun.

I understand if you feel the anti-mobile units have too niche a role. I'm okay with combining that with the vanguard role, so our spears serve as the mass expendable footsoldiers of the ancient era. If we build half our army of spears, however, we want to make sure that doesn't push out horses. We can do this by reducing the spear anti-mounted bonus, buffing horsemen, or both.
 
I also like having 'cannon fodder' units which vanguards do perfectly. :)

Are there any new in-game artworks / unit models we can use? I would imagine that the Civil War scenario would provide a good Industrial-era vanguard unit. A little off topic but there are probably some decent industrial era naval units we could use if necessary as well.
 
Yeah okay, but you didn't address my question, why can't that be taken over by promotions (only available to that middle line).

So that the basic "spear" doesnt have vs mounted, but can get it via promos. The only downsides i see is the visuals (hard to see which spear does what), and the murky thing of scout promos and upgrade path... but it would solve the problem of ai suicide attacking with vanguards...
 
The problem though is that the ressource - no ressource distinction falls away with Arquebusiers...
I don't see why this is a problem. They're all melee units that should be used for holding a line and attacking cities. We don't need to have identical unit lines throughout the game.

The choice is:

A) combined arms, healers, mounted units, and rare strategic units
B) mass archers and swordsmen
No it's not. Not having vanguards hardly means we won't use siege units or mounted units. And it means we let differnt copies of a particular melee unit function differently depending on their promotions.
If anything, I find that vanguards weaken combined arms, because they remove the fact that mounted units are the only ones that can move more than 2 tiles. IT's also very frustrating trying to keep track of which enemy vanguards have 2 moves and which have more.

I like having healers. The unmodded game does not
The AI doesn't understand how to use dedicated healers, and you an easily promote one of your melee units to be a healer and use that.
If you're worried about medic being too strong, then spread the effect over multiple promotions, so that a dedicated healer won't have combat buffs.

I also like having 'cannon fodder' units which vanguards do perfectly
Weak cannon fodder units are at the core of the AI's ineffectiveness in warfare. They take up space, but they don't do enough damage to the human to ever kill units, so it is far too easy for the human to just constantly rotate out their injured units to heal. So the human can grind through the AI's huge army with ranged attacks and without losing any units.
If the AI focuses on dedicated combat units instead that do more damage, then it can kill some stuff, making war costly for the human.

Basically I agree with Mitsho.
 
I really don't like the idea of removing hard counter units. Mounted units are going to steamroll AI's that don't promote their 'blank slate' spears the right way. Also makes iron units even less relevant if there is one other unit that fulfils multiple roles. Not a fan of this idea, worse than leaving it as is, and much worse than the well planned and well tested vanguard line.

It's also actually more distant from vanilla as well. Instead of 1 new line of units, you're suggesting retooling at least two existing ones (Counters, and the inevitable large nerf to Mounted). It's easier to deal with something new than a total redo of something old.
 
I'm willing to turn spears into vanguards if we make their anti-mounted role an optional promotion, instead of a basic attribute. This makes spears vanguards so we'll still have vanguards. It's an absolutely vital role for a balanced game.

I'll do this:
Scout → Spear → Pike → Gatling Gun → Machine Gun → Paratrooper
This sounds potentially doable, so these units are still decent strength. I don't mind not having dedicated counters without promotion. I think horses and knights should be balanced on their own, not balanced because there are dedicated counters. This means horses and knights weaker than swordsmen and longswords! The 4 movement and move after attack is a huge advantage.

But... are gatling and mg still ranged in this design? So archers and spears upgrade to the same unit? That might be a problem!
[Especially in terms of force composition.]

It also means a very long gap between pikes and their upgrade, which would make them useless in the midgame.

I think I'd still prefer no vanguards, and having pike -> arquebus.
 
We could keep the "skirmisher" in the early renaissance to bridge pikes and gatling guns. :)

@Ahriman
We counteract human advantages with AI advantages, so it's not a problem. Aircraft take over the role of ranged units from archers in the late game.

@albie_123
I wrote code for Gem so AIs choose promotions intelligently. That will be in Cep too.
 
I think the vanguard line ended up making the core resourceless melee line too uninteresting (spear, pike, arquebus, musket, rifle, etc.)

It also didn't help that the AI tended to massively overbuild vanguards, and thus was terrible on offense.

This, and this.

I think the role was interesting (support, recon, etc), but creating a new unit away from the mainline infantry units (especially spears and pikes) made those units much less useful. Some of the promotions used for vanguards were interesting (defensive, movement, sight, and obviously healing), but the units themselves felt a little more like a solution in search of a problem rather than a solution to the roles here.

The cripple for the AI on offence and with lots of weak units to mow down for XP, was a different problem.

I'd hate to abandon the work. I wouldn't mind seeing them retained as some kind of optional add-on, but they really didn't add much versus what they took away for me.

But. I could also agree with this:
We could keep the "skirmisher" in the early renaissance to bridge pikes and gatling guns.
The issue there is more the bridge between xbows and gatlings for me on defence. Pikes should go to arques. (I'd also like airborne units to remain in the game since they were converted over in GEM, if the line is removed entirely that is)
 
I'll do this:

Scout → Spear → Pike → Skirmisher → Gatling Gun → Machine Gun → Paratrooper​

Abilities:
  • +25% defense
Earned promotions:
  • Rough defense
  • Open defense
  • Medic
  • Recon
  • Cover
  • Anti-mounted

Heh. That'd be a huge nerf for the spears. I'm ok with making them a cheaper and weaker alternative to the swords, but taking away all attack promotions from them - that'd be too much, imo. Also, Recon+Melee = no. Especially, if "Recon" means not only "+sight", but "+sight" and "+mobility". That will just turn spears into vanguards v2.0 - cheap, unkillable, fast and weak. Those things were everywhere in GEM, and that was hell. I suggest leaving spears as they are now, only lower their cost and attack slightly. Also, machine guns into paratroopers? Not very logical.


However, extending the scout line will be good - ancient era scouts die from looking at enemy, and there are too many barbarians in this mod - early-mid game survival without some cheap and mobile unit is problematic. I suggest changing scouts to "less than average attack/defense" ranged units.

Promotions: rough defense (just enough to survive in melee with a single barbarian), sight, mobility(less than cav/armor), movement cost ignore, cover, march, pillage, +range(?), healer(?), avoid melee(?).

Severe penalties against everything but melee/ranged infantry (barbariands don't have tanks and horses now, do they?).

Purpose: exploration, recon, sabotage, anti-barb quick response unit. Paratroopers would fit in this line much better too.


Sorry for my english, still learning it. Hope this wall-o-text is readable.
 
I did like them, but they did make other unit lines a bit pointless. I could agree with either option (adding them or not).

What I liked:
  • Dedicated scouting units after the ancient era
  • Mobility
  • Low cost (if you needed just any unit ASAP, or for map control)

What I disliked:
  • Their mobility and sight made horse units less needed
  • Too many AI units on higher difficulties
  • Spears were VERY situational (just look at the table, anti-mounted is their only role)

Historically, light spearmen were THE most common military unit until late medieval times. Only few cultures had a standing army of heavy infantry like Greece, Rome or partially Carthage (they could have them because some sort of "middle-class" existed in their societies, along with a gold-based economy). Most others had a permanently armed and well-trained nobility, fighting usually from chariots or horses, which was supplemented by recruited townsfolk in times of need (Examples include Egypt, Persia, the Celtic or Germanic tribes and practically all medieval European kingdoms).

Those militiamen where either armed with (low-quality) bows or spear+shield. Other protective gear was rather uncommon.

Notable exceptions include medieval Britain, where commoners were well-trained with the longbow, making light spearmen mostly obsolete. The late-medieval pikemen armies that originated in Switzerland are another, but their creation had a lot to do with the urbanizationa and the reapperance of money-based economy we find in the late medieval era - and gunpowder of course.



The conclusion for our game units are:
  • Light spearmen were THE standard cannonfodder unit of ancient/medieval armies
  • The anti-mounted role of short, one-handed spears is traditionally exaggerated in civ games
  • Greek hoplites have much more in common with Roman legionaries than with other spearmen (and should probably be a variation of the swordmen, not the spearmen).
  • Then again, they were one of the few spear-armed units that really had the "density" and formation to be especially good vs. mounted units (If attacked from the front, of course).

SUMMARY: I suggest seing spears as generic light infantry instead of a dedicated counter-unit.


If we look at this table:


The secondary defensive roles could easily be taken by spears, as it was in reality. I guess this wouldn't need much explanation.
The anti-mounted role could be fulfilled with a small (25% max) bonus for spears vs horses and/or additional promotions, IF we need it at all. It's a Civ tradition, but hasn't been as important AFAIK historically. Also haven't see the AI mass-produce horses.
The healing role is fully artificial and gamey, but I guess replacement soldiers for high-class units would come from the militia, so healing on spears might make the most sense.

The scout role is most difficult. Sure, if we see spears as generic light unit, they could have this role, too. But it's not what you'd expect when looking at the unit. Additionally, it might overload the spear units with too many roles. Finally, it might be hard to balance a front-line unit (that needs to survive a few hits) and a scout (that needs to be weak to compensate for the fast movement).

Maybe archers as scouts are a better option? They are pretty weak if they are on open terrain and without support, so I don't think giving them mobility and sight promotions would make them overpowered. Those promotions are of little use when they stand behind spears or iron units in a larger formation anyway IMO. And even less when they garrison a city. They should be unable to ever get the move-after-attack promo, of course.

I really think archers getting the scout role deserves a second thought.
 
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