A sticky swords benefit (if it's a siege benefit) would make them rather more powerful. Gun2 promotions I believe is basically what was done in GEM (Longswords to Muskets instead of arques), as they both had the same strength, except the longswords had a city bonus too.
Should the Vanguard unit return?
- Thread starter Stalker0
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void_genesis
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
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Could we make the scout the only unit that can get the automatic "ignore terrain" promotion, and optional medic promotions/increased movement, so that the player has an incentive to build them and upgrade them. This would make medics relatively rare and precious, retaining fun for the human but limiting our ability to exploit medics against an AI that cannot use them effectively.
A general solution to the issue of stray unit types (there are several in addition to the scout in vanilla) would be to allow them to promote in and out of the more complete unit lines. So for example horsemen could be promoted to either dragoons or lancers, and both of them upgrade to the tank etc. It means these specialised units don't have to be built from scratch late in the game (often a major disincentive to making any of them).
Is it possible to code this so your upgrade paths have some degree of choice? Being able to upgrade scouts for example into either spear/archer/sword (with iron)/chariot archer (with horses)/worker coupled to the ability for scouts to carry forward rare promotions would make for some very difficult choices and varied game-play. An early economy can only support so many scouts, so the player would have to think carefully about how best to protect/promote/upgrade them.
A general solution to the issue of stray unit types (there are several in addition to the scout in vanilla) would be to allow them to promote in and out of the more complete unit lines. So for example horsemen could be promoted to either dragoons or lancers, and both of them upgrade to the tank etc. It means these specialised units don't have to be built from scratch late in the game (often a major disincentive to making any of them).
Is it possible to code this so your upgrade paths have some degree of choice? Being able to upgrade scouts for example into either spear/archer/sword (with iron)/chariot archer (with horses)/worker coupled to the ability for scouts to carry forward rare promotions would make for some very difficult choices and varied game-play. An early economy can only support so many scouts, so the player would have to think carefully about how best to protect/promote/upgrade them.
I don't see a problem with the basic scout. It serves a useful function, i build them, i don't think they should be removed. Just as i don't want to add too much in the mod, i don't want to remove too much either.
But i do feel that the recon role falls out by medieval period. Your primary exploration is done, we don't need an entire line dedicated to it. And frankly while i hope strategic resources are rare, I'm sure i could cough up at least 1 horse by medieval period if i really need a scout.
So my vote is merge them into pikes or arquebuiser. Its the simplest change with the biggest benefit imo.
But i do feel that the recon role falls out by medieval period. Your primary exploration is done, we don't need an entire line dedicated to it. And frankly while i hope strategic resources are rare, I'm sure i could cough up at least 1 horse by medieval period if i really need a scout.
So my vote is merge them into pikes or arquebuiser. Its the simplest change with the biggest benefit imo.
ExpiredReign
Deity
I'm in the middle of putting a speadsheet together to keep track of the upgrade paths for 'vanilla' BNW and CEP. Purely for my own sanity you understand.
This brought me to see that in CEP Scouts are upgraded to Spearman upon researching 'Bronze Working' and they then go off down the Pikeman -- Gatling Gun -- Machine Gun path. However the Shoshone UU is the Pathfinder, a Scout variant, and it's ability is pretty handy. Which means the UU is lost pretty early on into a game, even when much of the territory may still be hidden.
If we want to put Scouts into that path can we at least delay the upgrade until Pikeman.
This brought me to see that in CEP Scouts are upgraded to Spearman upon researching 'Bronze Working' and they then go off down the Pikeman -- Gatling Gun -- Machine Gun path. However the Shoshone UU is the Pathfinder, a Scout variant, and it's ability is pretty handy. Which means the UU is lost pretty early on into a game, even when much of the territory may still be hidden.
If we want to put Scouts into that path can we at least delay the upgrade until Pikeman.
ExpiredReign
Deity
I agree. However I believe the change has already been made. As of 3.0.5 version.
Bridger
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2005
- Messages
- 318
I guess I'm in the minority for enjoying Terra-like games? I see a lot of people saying the scout doesn't need to upgrade because you don't need a scouting line later in the game, but have you tried scouting a "new world" after astronomy without terrain ignore? It's painful >_<. I have to make a bunch of musketmen/riflemen who spend twice as long exploring the new world because they don't ignore terrain, or I send scouts who die to the first barbarian they find. Something has to be done about that time period.
Use horses and ships to scout at that point. It will go faster and the mounted units are able to fight. You can follow up with muskets/rifles as needed. ITC helps with dense forests and deserts (in CEP), but it's otherwise not that important once you get faster mounted units for flat terrain.
- That's the upgrade path in the mod as of now? Pike>GG? Or xbow>GG and pikes do something else (as expected) (at work, haven't had time to test new version).
ExpiredReign
Deity
@mystikx21
I could be wrong but I believe both Pike & Crossbowman upgrade to Gatling Gun.
I could be wrong but I believe both Pike & Crossbowman upgrade to Gatling Gun.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Pike -> arquebus seems like a no-brainer to me, from both gameplay and historic perspectives. Over time pikemen units and then the pike and shot square formation literally converged into pure gunpowder unit formations as the guns got better.
I'm not sure why unit roles were changed ahead of unit stats in the release, but it seems like an attempt to shoehorn in vanguards without the new units it required to do so and without really working through the unit lines within the game sensibly. Probably should have been left alone for now. Promotions could be added or consolidated as part of the transition but that's a separate issue for the most part.
We don't seem to have much support expressed here for keeping vanguards as a distinct line other than as giving something for scouts to upgrade to, which is a pretty weak role. That bodes against making significant unit upgrade path changes for the time being versus other forms of combat balance. If vanguards were to return, it should be with the other units of that line involved, and not as something wedging pikes to upgrade to gatling guns. It should be a more significant set of changes all at once rather than a series of change-unchange-change method that requires disentangling the previous set of changes each time.
I don't think we need them to return at all of course, or at best one or two gap fillers if we move toward Albie's style of upgrade paths instead of just shifting around the vanilla more sensibly.
We don't seem to have much support expressed here for keeping vanguards as a distinct line other than as giving something for scouts to upgrade to, which is a pretty weak role. That bodes against making significant unit upgrade path changes for the time being versus other forms of combat balance. If vanguards were to return, it should be with the other units of that line involved, and not as something wedging pikes to upgrade to gatling guns. It should be a more significant set of changes all at once rather than a series of change-unchange-change method that requires disentangling the previous set of changes each time.
I don't think we need them to return at all of course, or at best one or two gap fillers if we move toward Albie's style of upgrade paths instead of just shifting around the vanilla more sensibly.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Needless to say... agreed on all counts 
Lissindiel
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 48
Yeah, playing 3.0.5 game right now. It's painfull to watch my spears trying to kill barb spears 7 (seven) turns. Also, i don't see any reason to use swords or cav - spears have more than enough surviability to take garrison + crossbow fire, and have higher mobility than horses. They are pretty good at barb hunting, but thats the only good thing I can tell about them now.
ExpiredReign
Deity
Thal wants the player to engage more with Combined arms.
That is instead of spamming lots of one unit and conquering that way, we build various units that serve a specific role.
Upgrading scouts to Vanguards for the sake of it doesn't answer that question of what is its role.
That sort of thing.
Siege engines are vulnerable by themselves and lose 1 turn in setting up so what about going down the scout upgrade to vanguard path so that the vanguard's greater mobility means we move them into position first and fortify and then move the siege units up and set up.
Hopefully the AI attack the vanguard first and leave the siege unit alone.
Then any RECON promotions the Vanguard has gained, like Survivalism etc. keep it alive to protect the siege unit.
Now the Vanguard has the role of advance recon and protection for siege units.
In the same way Spearman type units counter horseman types.
Just brainstorming here.
That is instead of spamming lots of one unit and conquering that way, we build various units that serve a specific role.
Upgrading scouts to Vanguards for the sake of it doesn't answer that question of what is its role.
Archers are weak against horses so we protect them with spearman.
Warriors are useless by themselves against cities so we bring archers.That sort of thing.
Siege engines are vulnerable by themselves and lose 1 turn in setting up so what about going down the scout upgrade to vanguard path so that the vanguard's greater mobility means we move them into position first and fortify and then move the siege units up and set up.
Hopefully the AI attack the vanguard first and leave the siege unit alone.
Then any RECON promotions the Vanguard has gained, like Survivalism etc. keep it alive to protect the siege unit.
Now the Vanguard has the role of advance recon and protection for siege units.
In the same way Spearman type units counter horseman types.
Just brainstorming here.
Right that's how I already used vanguards (cheap screen for siege/ranged pre-arty), but the problem is this is an extremely narrow role. You can really use anything non-ranged pre-gatling guns to do it. And the AI as a result doesn't see it as a role at all as a result. Instead it uses a bunch of them massed to try to attack, when they have penalties to do so (effectively). This is a severe strategic nerf.
I think the immediate problem is trying to use them already in the game without adding the units but shoehorning the existing units to the line, and creating some strange or unnecessary promotion or function changes right now at an early mod stage. Other combat modifications should take precedence to adding new units I should think (consolidating promotions, changing the lancer upgrade path, and just general changes to unit stats or costs)
If the issue is combined arms, changing the spear line units to work with more modest anti-horse+defense bonuses like in VEM would achieve the same goal of mixed forces of archers for garrisons and attack of units, swords for city and unit attacks, spears as a counter and mainline defence and somewhat useful in attack, and horses as raiders. A limit on iron then means spears are more plentiful while leaving them flexible enough so as not to cripple the AI forces. It isn't necessary to add a new line of unit for combined arms that makes spears into niche units AND isn't understood by the AI when making aggressive wars.
I think the immediate problem is trying to use them already in the game without adding the units but shoehorning the existing units to the line, and creating some strange or unnecessary promotion or function changes right now at an early mod stage. Other combat modifications should take precedence to adding new units I should think (consolidating promotions, changing the lancer upgrade path, and just general changes to unit stats or costs)
If the issue is combined arms, changing the spear line units to work with more modest anti-horse+defense bonuses like in VEM would achieve the same goal of mixed forces of archers for garrisons and attack of units, swords for city and unit attacks, spears as a counter and mainline defence and somewhat useful in attack, and horses as raiders. A limit on iron then means spears are more plentiful while leaving them flexible enough so as not to cripple the AI forces. It isn't necessary to add a new line of unit for combined arms that makes spears into niche units AND isn't understood by the AI when making aggressive wars.
ExpiredReign
Deity
@mystikx21
I think the difference here, and I'm still trying to work this out in my own mind, is Vanguard units are in a different 'type' to other units and therefore the promotions they have available to them is different.
Gatling Guns wont have the same promotions as say Cavalry. Or Cannon have a different set to Pikemen.
The current GEM type for Scouts, Conscripts etc. is Vanguard which screws up the AI and makes it unsure what to do with them.
It might be possible that if that line of units was RECON like the vanilla Scout. The spamming of them would be gone.
We can't hope to fix all the woes of the AI when it comes warfare. They just seem to send wave upon wave of useless units with no support anyway.
But if they view them like scouts them might use them differently. Maybe.
I quite liked the whole Vanguard concept. Though I think it does need some tweaking.
I feel for Thal. Firaxis did not make it easy to see a solid progressive line of units develop throughout the eras. Some upgrades change their role while others don't.
Look at the Hunnic Battering Ram. Obviously it is a siege unit in use. But no. It replaced the spearman so it upgrades to a Pikeman not a catapult. WTH!
Chariot Archers are ranged but upgrade to Horsemen which are melee.
This in turn affects the promotions.
It is not a clear case of unit type vs unit type.
What a mess.
Firaxis, if you're reading this you should be ashamed.
I think the difference here, and I'm still trying to work this out in my own mind, is Vanguard units are in a different 'type' to other units and therefore the promotions they have available to them is different.
Gatling Guns wont have the same promotions as say Cavalry. Or Cannon have a different set to Pikemen.
The current GEM type for Scouts, Conscripts etc. is Vanguard which screws up the AI and makes it unsure what to do with them.
It might be possible that if that line of units was RECON like the vanilla Scout. The spamming of them would be gone.
We can't hope to fix all the woes of the AI when it comes warfare. They just seem to send wave upon wave of useless units with no support anyway.
But if they view them like scouts them might use them differently. Maybe.
I quite liked the whole Vanguard concept. Though I think it does need some tweaking.
I feel for Thal. Firaxis did not make it easy to see a solid progressive line of units develop throughout the eras. Some upgrades change their role while others don't.
Look at the Hunnic Battering Ram. Obviously it is a siege unit in use. But no. It replaced the spearman so it upgrades to a Pikeman not a catapult. WTH!
Chariot Archers are ranged but upgrade to Horsemen which are melee.
This in turn affects the promotions.
It is not a clear case of unit type vs unit type.
What a mess.
Firaxis, if you're reading this you should be ashamed.
xInVicTuSx
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2013
- Messages
- 75
Wait.. you mean Trebuchet? Because Battering ram >>>> Catapult.
Chariot archers to horsemen makes more sense to me than upgrading them to archers because they keep the speed and eventually the strength upgrade outpaces the advantage of range.
ExpiredReign
Deity
Yes. Very good. Move along now. Nothing to see here.
Still. The point is true. It should not upgrade to a pikeman.
And the point about the Chariot Archer to Horseman is the promotions don't carry through.
Melee units have no use for ranged promotions.
xInVicTuSx
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2013
- Messages
- 75
I'm guessing indirect fire would be the only one that wouldn't carry over?
Pretty sure March carries over and I don't think I've ever made it to a range promotion in the time it takes chariot archers to become obsolete (at least not recently).
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