Should Tupac leads Inca in Civ7

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ AFAIK The last of Tupac Amaru II's descendants were taken to Spanish Dungeon (probably ones belonged to the Inquisition) but i don't know what happened to him/her or if he/she lived by the time Napoleon I conquered Spain?
But that invasion did begins the end of Spanish Rule over their Continental American colony. Wtih some revolutionaries (San Martin) quickly approached British envoys, pledging themselves as British Ally against the Bonaparte holdings in Continental Americas.
And who is Belgrano anyway? did he learn that the last descendants still alive or did someone offered Incan Monarchy Title to him but he declined in favor or Republic.? (I'm not sure if South American 'republics' did adhere to Enlightenment tenets to any degree or were no better than a brand of Latin American Despotism or what?)

 

[Henri Christophe]

And who is Belgrano anyway?

Manuel Belgrano - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Belgrano is the dude who makes the Argentinian flag, he is important as one of the Libertadores da América.

 

[Patine]

I agree with that, if it is to speak about the Incas of Vilcabamba, it should be better make Manco Inca. Manco was also an Inca under spanish crown and in Vilcabamba. I think it's very cool for this game show the resistence of Incas in Vilcabamba to destroy the concept of Spanish conquest as easy and fast. It can be fast on Mexico, but it isn't on Andes.


Exactly what I'm thinking off. The Inca not dissapeared, they survive while the Spanish for while. And just nerds of history now about that.

I'm afraid I must agree with @Zaarin, here, that the Inca (and Aztecs and Maya - and, if we ever see them, Muisca) should be seen at their apex and better point as civilizations, and not ragtag guerillas with their glories long behind them. I feel that is the only way to do them true justice.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I'm afraid I must agree with @Zaarin, here, that the Inca (and Aztecs and Maya - and, if we ever see them, Muisca) should be seen at their apex and better point as civilizations, and not ragtag guerillas with their glories long behind them. I feel that is the only way to do them true justice.

And I am surprised that the forum is full of suggestion (or even in game like Wilhelmina) for "different" and multiple leaders for whatever main European civ but we cant have a secondary post-contact leader for one of the three main American civs

By the way the use of "true justice" is pretty inconsiderate when it was already pointed that the common portrait of these "lost civilizations" is actually harming the rights of these living cultures, people still in resistance.

 

[Krajzen]

Yes, he was awesome rapper

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Our next rapper... WILHELMINA!!! Featuring another leader that was leading an empire that was not at the height of its power and yet Firaxis considered it!

 

[BuchiTaton]

Not forget that Kongolese can have also a secondary resistance leader.

 

[Patine]

By the way the use of "true justice" is pretty inconsiderate when it was already pointed that the common portrait of these "lost civilizations" is actually harming the rights of these living cultures, people still in resistance.

Please, I am asking nicely. Do not attempt this disingenuous, "guilt-tripping," tactic. My point-of-view is pretty straight forward, and not every civ, leader, or portrayal can possibly be represented. If you disagree with me, that's fine, you are entitled, as we all are. But, please, do not resort to this level of underhanded rhetoric to attempt to turn my viewpoint into something it is not.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Please, I am asking nicely. Do not attempt this disingenuous, "guilt-tripping," tactic. My point-of-view is pretty straight forward, and not every civ, leader, or portrayal can possibly be represented. If you disagree with me, that's fine, you are entitled, as we all are. But, please, do not resort to this level of underhanded rhetoric to attempt to turn my viewpoint into something it is not.

"Guilt-tripping"

 

[Patine]

"Guilt-tripping"

That's how it came across to me. You know, to paraphrase, "you're a horrible, heartless cad who is indifferent to the suffering, and antagonistic to the rights, of Latin American indigenous people, supporting, by default, their oppression and marginalization, because you would rather fill finite civ leader slots with Pre-Colombian Inca, Maya, and Aztec leaders at their apex rather than struggling Colonial and Post-Colonial Era guerilla leaders in the upcoming Civ game iteration. How could you?! You monster!" One can see this interpretation of how you phrased things, from a certain of view...

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Manuel Belgrano - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Belgrano is the dude who makes the Argentinian flag, he is important as one of the Libertadores da América.

And why did a Bishop blessed a flag? did the Roman Catholic HQ joined forces against Napoleon? (By the time Argentinians stage a rebellion, Spain is under the rule of Joseph I of Bonaparte house.)
Talking of other Rebellion leader. Portuguese should also have John I of Portugal (1800s) who simply shifted his Royal Office to Brazil and (and he too. can lead Brazil alternatively).

 

[BuchiTaton]

That's how it came across to me. You know, to paraphrase, "you're a horrible, heartless cad who is indifferent to the suffering, and antagonistic to the rights, of Latin American indigenous people, supporting, by default, their oppression and marginalization, because you would rather fill finite civ leader slots with Pre-Colombian Inca, Maya, and Aztec leaders at their apex rather than struggling Colonial and Post-Colonial Era guerilla leaders in the upcoming Civ game iteration. How could you?! You monster!" One can see this interpretation of how you phrased things, from a certain of view...

Just WOW.

Of course CIV6 and the Vietnamese people are wrong having Lady Trieu as a valid leader despite her legacy was a failed short resistance movement, when they have options like Le Thanh Tong! So for sure the Cruzoob maya state that lasted 68 years were also a "ragtag", after all you have "the only way to do them true justice" and not their actual decendents.

I find absurd that a lot of the regular civs have secondary and/or "not top" historical options as leaders but god save us from a secondary leader for just one from the three American civs that better fulfill having significative different eras to represent. But of course not everyone could be represented except a secondary Kongolese resistence leader.

 

[Patine]

Just WOW.

Of course CIV6 and the Vietnamese people are wrong having Lady Trieu as a valid leader despite her legacy was a failed short resistance movement, when they have options like Le Thanh Tong! So for sure the Cruzoob maya state that lasted 68 years were also a "ragtag", after all you have "the only way to do them true justice" and not their actual decendents.

I find absurd that a lot of the regular civs have secondary and/or "not top" historical options as leaders but god save us from a secondary leader for just one from the three American civs that better fulfill having significative different eras to represent. But of course not everyone could be represented except a secondary Kongolese resistence leader.

That's not what I said, either. My point is, I disagreed with your views on who should fill certain finite leader slots in game. You did not just express disagreement, but portrayed my views as objectively wrong, and even, seeming, socially irresponsible. Thus, the way your response was phrased, it was as if I didn't have the, "right," to dissent from your opinion, lest I be declared, "disregarding modern indigenous people's concerns," - and that is where my statement of guilt-tripping orginates.

 

[BuchiTaton]

And why did a Bishop blessed a flag? did the Roman Catholic HQ joined forces against Napoleon? (By the time Argentinians stage a rebellion, Spain is under the rule of Joseph I of Bonaparte house.)
Talking of other Rebellion leader. Portuguese should also have John I of Portugal (1800s) who simply shifted his Royal Office to Brazil and (and he too. can lead Brazil alternatively).

The position of the catholic was pretty pragmatic and changing depending the time and region of the whole Napoleonic Wars+Latin American Revolutions, it was common to find priest and religious authorities in both sides despite someon could first supposed that revolutionary ideas were against the church, in reality everybody was justifying their cause as the proper catholic one.

By the way about indigenist movements and catholicism, the Mesoamerica and Andine cultures appropriated catholiscism after conquest of course with different degrees of syncretism. So the more plausible alternative outcome was a form of catholicism with syncretic elements.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Talking of other Rebellion leader. Portuguese should also have John I of Portugal (1800s) who simply shifted his Royal Office to Brazil and (and he too. can lead Brazil alternatively).

The only João who can lead Brazil is D.João VI. I don't have idea who are you meaning with John I.
I hope you are meaning D.João VI but just called him John I for some reason.

So the more plausible alternative outcome was a form of catholicism with syncretic elements.

I love syncretic elements with catolicism, here in Brazil we have a lot of syncretism between the church and african religions.
I would like this game find way to play with syncretism in this game.

 

[Zaarin]

I would like this game find way to play with syncretism in this game.

I 100% agree. I want to see a lot more nuance with religion in Civ7 with things like syncretism, reformations, schisms, and heresies.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Isn't that Andean localized Roman Catholicism similiar phenomenon as an origin of Vodoo in Haiti?

 

[Henri Christophe]

^ Isn't that Andean localized Roman Catholicism similiar phenomenon as an origin of Vodoo in Haiti?

I'm not that familiar with sincretism at the Andes, but is similar what happens with the Virgin of Guadalupe, on México.
Her major temple is located at an ancient Aztec temple of Tonantzin, so the faith on the Virgin of Guadalupe is a kind of remanescence of the cult of Tonantzin.

Meanwhile the phenomenon of sincretism on Voodoo of Haiti was kind of different, as slaves the people were forbiden to have their own goods, so they use catholic images to be devout of, but not devout of the catholic image, but devout of an african good unders the catholic image. For example, St. Patricks of Ireland is portraited with a lot of snakes, so he was sincretized as Damballah Wedo, the rainbow snake of Voodoo religion.

 

[BuchiTaton]

The 19th century Maya state of Cruzoob gets their name from the "Cult of the Talking Cross", the original leaders gained support for the cause claiming a divine blessing from a talking cross found in a cenote (flooded sinkhole) that evolved in a theocratic council government and their syncretic cult that is still practiced by part of the Yucatec Maya. The Cruzoob kept their capital at Chan Santa Cruz for over 50 years, most of these period being recognized by the British as sovereign (not the Mexican government) over the region.

By the way even Age of Empires 3 already have the Cruzoob represented in game (even with two unique units and many unique techs/cards), a nice detail that could be done also by Firaxis since we already have many others leaders that prove they are not afraid of thinking outside the box.