Should Vasal States exist after Emancipation?

[pianoman1242]

great spies are great scouts imo since they can scout enemy territory, using their roads if you aren't at war with them.

@mechaerik: I also didn't know Great Spies could be caught. It must be a really low percentage as I have never had that happen to me.

 

[Willem]

I used great spies for golden ages.

That's kind of a waste really, IMO you're much better off having them Infiltrate a city and getting a huge boost in your espionage against a civ.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Golden age vs infiltrate vs settle depends on time frame in the game. It's better to settle or infiltrate early, but a golden age when you have 12+ cities and/or over 100 worked tiles that will benefit from it will easily surpass what infiltration would do (in fact, you can funnel the GA bonuses into EP and get a much higher return), so it just depends on the situation which one is a waste.

 

[Xellos-_^]

That's kind of a waste really, IMO you're much better off having them Infiltrate a city and getting a huge boost in your espionage against a civ.

i don't use espionage much. As it is mostly using a bunch of spies to stage uprising right when i attack it.

 

[Willem]

i don't use espionage much. As it is mostly using a bunch of spies to stage uprising right when i attack it.

You don't have to use espionage to gain some benefit from it. There's lots of passive missions that will occur just by having enough points against a civ. Like being able to see into his/her cities and find out what's in there and what they are building. Using a Great Spy to Infiltrate really helps alot to unlock those types of abilities. Also having alot of points against a civ will prevent them from being able to conduct missions against you.

 

[Antilogic]

simply write a script to use a "satellite" word instead of "vassal" in industrial and modern ages.

I figured either satellites or commonwealths would be appropriate terms in the modern times.

 

[scothed]

You can terminate a Vassal agreement. Just liberate enough of their cities to get their population and land above the 50% threshold.

 

[pianoman1242]

You can terminate a Vassal agreement. Just liberate enough of their cities to get their population and land above the 50% threshold.

i thought that was for capitulated vassals, not voluntary ones

 

[PaulisKhan]

great spies are great scouts imo since they can scout enemy territory, using their roads if you aren't at war with them.

@mechaerik: I also didn't know Great Spies could be caught. It must be a really low percentage as I have never had that happen to me.

I believe it only happens in the Road to War and other WWII mods, but I may be wrong.

 

[Antilogic]

To clarify: the BtS notes claim great spies should never be exposed and captured, ever. Thus, I believe it is in a mod only.

 

[scothed]

i thought that was for capitulated vassals, not voluntary ones

Ah. Yes. You might very well be right there! My bad!

 

[Xellos-_^]

You can terminate a Vassal agreement. Just liberate enough of their cities to get their population and land above the 50% threshold.

Ah. Yes. You might very well be right there! My bad!

it is not a guarantee that the vassal will free itself once it meets all the conditions. if you are on good terms and your power level is way higher there is good chance your vassal won't break the contract.

 

[whitelaughter]

Vassals, even conquered vassals, may prefer vassalage to the alternatives. Real world, Gibraltar would be a British Vassal, and *really* doesn't want to leave.

"Never" in Civ seems to mean 'less than 50%' - after having a spy caught will performing counterspying (supposedly no chance of discovery), I swore off the unit: why bother spending gold to perform a risky action? Even enemy spies can be ignored, workers will fix the damage, and it drains the enemy coffers, until the odds catch up with the spy and (s)he's caught.

 

[Cryptoanarchist]

after having a spy caught will performing counterspying (supposedly no chance of discovery), I swore off the unit: why bother spending gold to perform a risky action?

Well if you are trailing miserabily in techs you can steal them for about 1/3 cost. Not bad if you have nationhood for the +25% EP bonus too. I put the espionage slider as high as I could afford after a costly war and slowly clawed back. Also found out that if a mission failed I didn't lose EPs (just the spy) and an 80%+ sucess rate.

Also remember you can take 50% off the cost of a mission by leaving the spy still for a few turns (safer with a big EP lead). I'm about to look into espionage more. So many ins and outs I'm still unaware of.

it is not a guarantee that the vassal will free itself once it meets all the conditions. if you are on good terms and your power level is way higher there is good chance your vassal won't break the contract.

So true. I've had vassals colinise the new world while I was fighting in the old and grow to my size without declaring independance. When they got to 50% of my size I still had a large stack near them (annoyed/furious). By 80% they where pleased and didnt want to leave at a smallish power difference

 

[duckstab]

They can't conduct missions against you, but they can still send Spies to snoop around inside your borders. Spies can be discovered if they're stationary, whether they attempt to perform a mission or not.

I've actually had my spies stumbled upon just while moving through rival territory. Even while on a caravel going through a rival city on its way to somewhere else.

 

[Antilogic]

Well if you are trailing miserabily in techs you can steal them for about 1/3 cost. Not bad if you have nationhood for the +25% EP bonus too. I put the espionage slider as high as I could afford after a costly war and slowly clawed back. Also found out that if a mission failed I didn't lose EPs (just the spy) and an 80%+ sucess rate.

Also remember you can take 50% off the cost of a mission by leaving the spy still for a few turns (safer with a big EP lead). I'm about to look into espionage more. So many ins and outs I'm still unaware of.

You don't lose EP if you fail a mission? This totally changes my outlook on stealing technology.

I've actually had my spies stumbled upon just while moving through rival territory. Even while on a caravel going through a rival city on its way to somewhere else.

To my understanding, spies on caravels or submarines will no longer be caught in rival territories under the most recent patch (3.17).

 

[duckstab]

That's possible, this was in 3.03.

 

[mechaerik]

I believe it only happens in the Road to War and other WWII mods, but I may be wrong.

Actually, i WAS playing RtW: UE. Is that why it happened?

Well if you are trailing miserabily in techs you can steal them for about 1/3 cost. Not bad if you have nationhood for the +25% EP bonus too. I put the espionage slider as high as I could afford after a costly war and slowly clawed back. Also found out that if a mission failed I didn't lose EPs (just the spy) and an 80%+ sucess rate.

Are you serious? Failed mission don't use EP? That completely brings me around to espionage, which i previously used mostly to gain LoS into my enemies lands to plan for war.

 

[whitelaughter]

Well if you are trailing miserabily in techs you can steal them for about 1/3 cost.

Or research a single tech, and trade it to several other powers for multiple techs? And then broker your new techs the following turn?

The AI doesn't know how to tech broker properly; the idea of being behind in the tech race is completely alien to me.

 

[Cryptoanarchist]

Or research a single tech, and trade it to several other powers for multiple techs? And then broker your new techs the following turn?

The AI doesn't know how to tech broker properly; the idea of being behind in the tech race is completely alien to me.

I disable tech brokering. I found the AI too lenient with each other. Also on monarch the AI gets some decent commerce buffs and I cant maintain a tech lead unless I focus heavily on my economy.

And in this game I was like 15 techs behind.

You don't lose EP if you fail a mission? This totally changes my outlook on stealing technology.

I certainly believe thats the case. I may have lost a few hundread but given my spy failed a mission costing like 8000/10000 points and my other spy could attempt it in the same turn showed it was negligible .

I found it fun to just take a chance on a new path to get myself out of trouble