Should we rush a Library in Khatovar?

[donsig]

Are we not in the second century AD? Why worry about the thousand year bonus now and not 2 or 3 thousand years ago? All of a sudden now we are worried about culture?

We do not have to rush these libraries when we are in monarchy either. We certainly do not have to spend the entire treasury on libraries because there is no pressing need to have them in those cities now. We will do fine even if we let those cities build libraries one shield at a time!

 

[donsig]

Also, just to set the record straight, this was my poll, and my recommendation, not Eryei's, although I believe he agrees with my point of view.

Yes, but eyrei suggested polls on last minute (before monarchy) pop rushes but has also said they should not be binding.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
Are we not in the second century AD? Why worry about the thousand year bonus now and not 2 or 3 thousand years ago? All of a sudden now we are worried about culture?

We do not have to rush these libraries when we are in monarchy either. We certainly do not have to spend the entire treasury on libraries because there is no pressing need to have them in those cities now. We will do fine even if we let those cities build libraries one shield at a time!

I have been concerned with culture the entire time. We built several culture buildings early on, but then found ourselves having to devote all cities to war time production. We still have 500 years or so to complete culture buildings that will still benefit from the age bonus. If we let these cities build culture buildings one shield at a time, they will never really benefit from the age bonus, and also, I estimate that cities without temples will not be able to celebrate WLTK days unless we secure another luxury.

 

[Justus II]

I have also been supporting building libraries 2000 years ago. In fact, I recommended when we rushed the library in Pherris that we ought to do so in several other cities as well, but understood that due to the war it would have to wait. The cities selected all have reasons that they, or we, would benefit from the library - Expanded borders, access to new resources (Wheat for Boston), etc. The reason this has become urgent is that this is our last chance to rush them before we go into anarchy, and our last chance to rush them without spending hundreds of gold to do so.

I understand, and respect, those who have had such strong differences of opinion, and have every right to protest or debate a decision they do not agree with. That is part of what this game is all about. That is why I wanted to take a poll. So far, the majority of our citizens agree with this course of action, by a 2 or 3 to one margin. I hope everyone realizes that this decision was made taking into account the pros and cons of each side, and with the best interests of our nation as a whole in mind.

 

[donsig]

A majority of citizens has not even voted in the poll. A majority of those voting in the polls have agreed but that doesn't indicate a great grassroots movement for rushing these things. If these polls had not been posted and we went on to monarchy with rushing the libraries do any of you think there would have been a great outcry? I doubt anyone would have said a word.

This is not a diety level game and we are not in any competition to get a certain level of points (culture or otherwise). our culture is not in danger of being over awed by another civ's culture and our military is conquering our closest neighbors.

There is no dire need to rush these improvements.

 

[punkbass2000]

I imagine there would similarly be no great public outcry if we did we rush these libraries. We must obey the polls, to do otherwise because we think there would be no outcry is undemocratic!

 

[donsig]

It is a sad commentary on our country that we will not raze captured cities but fall all over ourselves to turn our own citizens into buildings. If this is our 'culture' I want none of it.

 

[punkbass2000]

No one is proposing turning citizens into buildings. We simply are going to ask the citizens to work a little extra harder for a unified goal. If a few unpatriotic, rebellious citizens choose to abandon our civilization as a result, then I believe that says more about those citizens then about those interested in preserving our glorious nation. With our civilization at the turning point that it is, we're all working a little harder to make things work. Is it unreasonable for us to ask the same of our loyalcitizens? I think not!

 

[donsig]

Just what 'turning point' has our country reached? You make it sound like a do or die situation and I just don't see that! You can count me among the "few unpatriotic, rebellious citizens".

 

[punkbass2000]

What turning point? Have you no eyes to see nor no ears to listen? Our great civilization has recently entered a new age known as 'The Middle Ages'! If this is the middle, then surely we are our on way to somewhere of great importance. Also, there is talk of revolution, with hopefully better days afterwards!

 

[donsig]

You know, I did notice that middle ages thing and I have heard rumors about revolution. Yet I still don't see either of these things as threatening to our country nor do I see in them a need for turning citizens into libraries.

 

[punkbass2000]

I don't recall claiming that our nation was threatened. And, once more, no is proposing turning citizens into libraries.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
I don't recall claiming that our nation was threatened. And, once more, no is proposing turning citizens into libraries.

Well actually turning citizens into libraries is exactly what this poll is about.

I agree with donsig. I am appalled at our supposedly democratic government's complete disregard for the citizens who elected them.

Mr. Vice President, those citizens in the newly capture areas will become productive when we build courthouses and impose the rule of law on them. As their situation stands now, there is little reason to behave in a productive manner, given the widespread starvation.

Genocide might be an easy solution, but I for one cannot stand idly by and watch this corrupt government kill it's citizens just so that one's who manage to survive somehow can learn to read.

Yes, punkbass, there is a revolution coming, and this government should fear those days of anarchy indeed...

Bill
In Opposition

 

[punkbass2000]

"Well actually turning citizens into libraries is exactly what this poll is about. "

Not true. In terms of the game dynamics, one could view it that way, but IIRC, according to the manual we are merely forcing citizens to work harder, causing some to desert.

 

[donsig]

according to the manual we are merely forcing citizens to work harder, causing some to desert.

That makes it ok? While that sounds better than 'building libraries with the bones of our people' it's still a far cry from caring for and nurturing our citizens. To some of us our citizens are priceless and irreplaceable, the very ends towards which we work, the reason for having a civilization. To others they are merely replaceable means to some (as of yet undefined) ends.

Yes, punkbass, there is a revolution coming, and this government should fear those days of anarchy indeed...
Bill
In Opposition

Our government and our people lost when Bill_in_PDX and Cyc left the cabinet.

 

[punkbass2000]

Don't blame the government because some citizens aren't loyal.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by donsig


Our government and our people lost when Bill_in_PDX and Cyc left the cabinet.

While I am flattered donsig, let me do state that the leadership shown by our President and Vice President during the global war crisis was nothing less than outstanding.

It is on this issue that I am diametrically opposed to them, and I hate the use of last minute polls and chat discussions to decide key issues, including the death/dispersal of our sovereign citizens.

I cannot fathom how the lives of our citizens are worth an arbitrary boundary that I'm sure they both intend to swarm with immortals should anyone dare touch it anyway.

Bill

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
"Well actually turning citizens into libraries is exactly what this poll is about. "

Not true. In terms of the game dynamics, one could view it that way, but IIRC, according to the manual we are merely forcing citizens to work harder, causing some to desert.

Actually you are wrong my friend. Look at the prompt screen next time you rush...it will say:

"...will cost the lives of x citizens"

This is not a getting up and leaving town decision. This is cracking the proverbial whip and killing people.

In this case, killing people for a border square....think about it.

Bill
In Opposition

 

[Shaitan]

I just thought of an analogy that makes me wish I had voted "NO".

What if cracking the whip had similar consequences in our demo game to what it has in the game itself? What I mean is if a third of the population in a city in the game were sacrificed by pop rushing meant that a random third of the demo game citizens living in that city were sacrificed as well (exiled from the demo game).

When I think of it in those terms there's no way I would vote to pop rush.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX:

While I am flattered donsig, let me do state that the leadership shown by our President and Vice President during the global war crisis was nothing less than outstanding.

I would say the entire first term government did a very good job and I'm sure the second term gov. will do as well. In lamenting the 'retirement' of Bill_in_PDX and Cyc I meant no disrespect to anyone else in either the term 1 or term 2 government.

I also never said or implied that rushing improvements during despotism was not advantageous to our country. Our current leaders put forth the analysis that showed how we gained by it. My point all along was that we (as a country) were strong enough to be able to forego those gains, that we had the luxury of not having to rush these improvements.
As Bill_in_PDX pointed out the game does use the phrase "will cost the lives of ... citizens" and I felt that in the context of the democracy game this is wrong except in dire emergencies. Shaitan's analogy had also occurred to me some time ago and it only strengthened my reslove to "Save our Citizens!"
My only hope now is that since the revolution was delayed we do not get another round of 'last chance' rushes!