Sid Meier's GDC2010 talk, obviously the Civ5 devs didnt listen.. Why?

Why not drop the turn-based system totally and go for a real-time approach? The Victoria series from Paradox does an excellent job of this, and Firaxis can learn a lot from it.

Sid addressed this in his talk. It has to do with player psychology. He tried developing Civ as real time and found players were just watching their civ develop. When they changed it to a turned-based system, it gave players the feel of being in charge of their empire.
 
Sid addressed this in his talk. It has to do with player psychology. He tried developing Civ as real time and found players were just watching their civ develop. When they changed it to a turned-based system, it gave players the feel of being in charge of their empire.

This may have been true for his version of Civ1 but I don't think it's true for all real-time games. When playing Europa Universalis, I don't really have the feeling of just watching (and at any rate, that is what Kings actually do most of the time). You just have to make sure to give the player decisions to make.

It is not about player psychology, it's about making decisions. I guess the density of decisions was just too low in the real-time version of civ.
 
Maybe sligthly off topic but in connection to Sid: Civ 5 lacks even the complexity of CIV1 which has been developed by a single person Sid (I think so). So calling this game "rushed", well I don't know, how much time they - a whole team of programmers - need. Somehow nowadays programming is less about coding and more about...
 
I believe what he meant was that a strength superiority of 1.5 to 0.5 should not translate into 3:1 odds. In other words, when one unit has 3x the strength of another unit (think scout vs horseman, or warrior vs longswordsman), it should not be winning only 3 out of 4 times - i.e. losing 25% of the time. It should be winning way more often than that.
I can see why someone would draw this conclusion, but I can just as much see why a simple and elegant system of direct and proportionnal comparison works just as well. Better, in fact, because even if we agree that being "three times stronger" (which doesn't mean a lot in reality, considering the multiple factors, how they interact and the inherent incertainty of battle) means we win "much more than three times out of four", it still doesn't answer "by how much ?", so it doesn't allow a more intuitive answer than glancing at the numbers and seeing how much each one has a chance to win.
My guess is that ozon, blind biker and Akka are exactly the crowd that Sid Meier was talking about when he used the "hey, why are my 20:10 odds not better than 2:1? 20:10 is way better than 2:1!" example.
Actually, I was pointing at exactly the opposite - that is, I pointed that 3:1 was the same as 1,5:0,5.
It was supposedly not your point - your point supposedly being that 3:1 ratio should give a much higher than 3:1 odds - but you're still accusing us for the exact contrary of what we said, so maybe you should refrain from saying things like "Everybody can post here, regardless of intelligence or whether or not they actually took the time reading (understanding) what they bash".
 
Sid addressed this in his talk. It has to do with player psychology. He tried developing Civ as real time and found players were just watching their civ develop. When they changed it to a turned-based system, it gave players the feel of being in charge of their empire.
See below.
This may have been true for his version of Civ1 but I don't think it's true for all real-time games. When playing Europa Universalis, I don't really have the feeling of just watching (and at any rate, that is what Kings actually do most of the time). You just have to make sure to give the player decisions to make.

It is not about player psychology, it's about making decisions. I guess the density of decisions was just too low in the real-time version of civ.

This, and Sid Meier didn't have this example to follow when he released Civ 1. Now technology is more advanced, and the developers can give players more involvement in the game they're playing. Keep in mind that Civ 1's time was a time when the Internet was hardly even invented yet, and computers had little to no processing power.
 
I can see why someone would draw this conclusion, but I can just as much see why a simple and elegant system of direct and proportionnal comparison works just as well. Better, in fact, because even if we agree that being "three times stronger" (which doesn't mean a lot in reality, considering the multiple factors, how they interact and the inherent incertainty of battle) means we win "much more than three times out of four", it still doesn't answer "by how much ?", so it doesn't allow a more intuitive answer than glancing at the numbers and seeing how much each one has a chance to win.
Indeed, a somewhat arbitrary but sensible function would have to be defined for this, which might not be immediately accessible for the player (but could be explained via a tooltip, a civiliopedia entry or the manual). But besides being more realistic (which is only of secondary importance imo, since I see Civ as being similar to Chess - a game of abstraction, but cooler :cool:), it also awards the player for bringing enough firepower, as well as forcing him/her to be more strategic when facing a superior enemy (like bombarding, etc., which can be easily be tweaked to accommodate the change in balance).

Actually, I was pointing at exactly the opposite - that is, I pointed that 3:1 was the same as 1,5:0,5.
Yes, but I was talking about 1.5:0.5 strength vs 3:1 odds there. You just took a few numbers from my post, mixed them together and wrote one short sentence insinuating that what I wrote was crap. I realize I could have written that better in my 2nd post, but reading both of my posts (actually, the first one should have been enough, especially for people who have actually watched the links from the OP, but either way, both are on the same page and not that far apart) should have been clear enough (but I'll edit it to make it even clearer).

This, and Sid Meier didn't have this example to follow when he released Civ 1. Now technology is more advanced, and the developers can give players more involvement in the game they're playing. Keep in mind that Civ 1's time was a time when the Internet was hardly even invented yet, and computers had little to no processing power.
No matter how advance the technology is, I like sitting back and taking all the time I want to think about what I'm going to do next. I don't see a need at all to make Civ into an RTS. It might be a fun game, but just not Civ.
 
My hunch is that he sees the future of TBS games in online play

About time Civ considers this move, and I believe it will make it in the near future (ignoring the lame facebook project here). Having a permanent online civilization and easily interacting with other players online is just too awesome not to consider.
 
About time Civ considers this move, and I believe it will make it in the near future (ignoring the lame facebook project here). Having a permanent online civilization and easily interacting with other players online is just too awesome not to consider.
Yep, I totally agree (as long as it is still at least semi-TBS, e.g. 1 turn per day). :p
 
Well, 2k Games is owned by Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc which is publicly traded on the stock market. Every quarter, they are required to report earnings which has a significant effect on the value of the stock. Civ5 sales must have had a positive impact because its stock has risen substantially since the game's release http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:TTWO

My guess is Firaxis was rushed to hurry up and release the game in order to produce some nice earnings reports.
 
I can see why someone would draw this conclusion, but I can just as much see why a simple and elegant system of direct and proportionnal comparison works just as well. Better, in fact, because even if we agree that being "three times stronger" (which doesn't mean a lot in reality, considering the multiple factors, how they interact and the inherent incertainty of battle) means we win "much more than three times out of four", it still doesn't answer "by how much ?", so it doesn't allow a more intuitive answer than glancing at the numbers and seeing how much each one has a chance to win.
Have you not heard of how much complaints players had in the past about spearmen defeating tanks? If we used a system of "direct and proportional comparison", you will have such situations pretty regularly. Imagine your horseman losing to a scout once every four battles!

Thus, your system might be simpler, but it is not necessarily more intuitive. Players do expect that stronger units will win battles most of the time (e.g. swordsman vs warrior), and that vastly stronger units will never lose a battle to a weaker unit (e.g. spearman vs tank). Players would be crying foul if it were otherwise.

Finally, your entirely complaint about non-transparency/opacity of odds is negated by the fact that in Civ V, the combat odds are displayed clearly when you mouseover the enemy unit. So I don't see what the problem is.
 
Yes, but I was talking about 1.5:0.5 strength vs 3:1 odds there. You just took a few numbers from my post, mixed them together and wrote one short sentence insinuating that what I wrote was crap.
No, I took a sentence from your post that was unclear, and YOU took what I said and simply inverted its meaning, which is quite worse, all the while insulting several of us for our supposed lack of reading comprehension and intelligence - ironic, to say the least. Let me requote the part you "forgot", which already point all that :

It was supposedly not your point - your point supposedly being that 3:1 ratio should give a much higher than 3:1 odds - but you're still accusing us for the exact contrary of what we said, so maybe you should refrain from saying things like "Everybody can post here, regardless of intelligence or whether or not they actually took the time reading (understanding) what they bash".
 
Have you not heard of how much complaints players had in the past about spearmen defeating tanks? If we used a system of "direct and proportional comparison", you will have such situations pretty regularly. Imagine your horseman losing to a scout once every four battles!

Thus, your system might be simpler, but it is not necessarily more intuitive. Players do expect that stronger units will win battles most of the time (e.g. swordsman vs warrior), and that vastly stronger units will never lose a battle to a weaker unit (e.g. spearman vs tank). Players would be crying foul if it were otherwise.
Actually, I was one of the person very irritated by the "spearman vs tank" problem. But it's not just about the system here.

It's true that the system is a bit too simplistic and random, which is why they added (and justly so) hit points as soon as Civ2. HP "smooth" the randomness and correct the main problem of the system ("all or nothing", which give too often weird results).
But on the whole, the system is rather good, if quite abstract.

The BALANCE however was out of whack - a spearman with 2 def, on a mountain (x3) and fortified (x1,5) had nearly has much defense (about 9) than a tank had offense (10). And it was a spearman, the second weakest defense unit after militia. This is not just because of the system, but also of the numbers.
Finally, your entirely complaint about non-transparency/opacity of odds is negated by the fact that in Civ V, the combat odds are displayed clearly when you mouseover the enemy unit. So I don't see what the problem is.
Well, the problem is that it requires two units in fighting position to have a rough idea of the odds. Which means that by that time, it's too late for long-term strategy planning. A simple system allows to evaluate quickly and intuitively the state of your armies and gross guesstimate of how the fights will end in the large scheme of things.
 
No, I took a sentence from your post that was unclear,
Only unclear if you didn't properly read my previous post(s).
and YOU took what I said and simply inverted its meaning, which is quite worse, all the while insulting several of us for our supposed lack of reading comprehension and intelligence - ironic, to say the least. Let me requote the part you "forgot", which already point all that :
No, I didn't "invert" anything. I pointed out that 3 people were bashing me for something they themselves didn't comprehend.

It was supposedly not your point - your point supposedly being that 3:1 ratio should give a much higher than 3:1 odds - but you're still accusing us for the exact contrary of what we said, so maybe you should refrain from saying things like "Everybody can post here, regardless of intelligence or whether or not they actually took the time reading (understanding) what they bash".
So? What does that have to do with anything? I'm happy for you that you seem to have understood what I meant - if you had written that right away, instead of your cryptic one-sentence-response where you made it look like 1.5:0.5 strength should be the same as 3:1 combat odds, I might have excluded you from the list. But as it was, you were just the third person accusing me of mixing up the odds, and you were wrong. Just repeating what YOU have written later on will not change that (ozon at least had the decency to admit he overlooked something).

But obviously this leads now where, as such I will not respond that any longer.


About "spearman vs tank": As I have written before (see my post, #66), imo Civ, like any other game, is some form of abstraction, but also, again, a spearman unit beating a tank unit is actually quite realistic. Just look at the war in Iraq, where normal people with VERY limited resources take out one vehicle after another. So for me it stands to reason that a great commander would be able to organize some explosives and rig the area so that they destroy some tanks that foolishly went through a valley (or something like that).
So not only do I think it's somewhat realistic (not the galley vs. battleship, though, which I think should NOT happen, especially not as it does in Civ5), but I also it's good for the balancing since it gives the weaker civ some help. Still, the odds for something like this should be around 1%, not 10% or more.
 
Not really, Sid brought us Civ1, the other games had different game designers:
brian reynolds (civ2, smac)
jeff briggs (civ2, civ3)
soren johnson (civ3, civ4)
john shafer (civ4 bts, civ5)

Brian Reynolds made the best ones. Is rather astonishing that no one has yet made a strategy game anywhere near as good as SMAC was.
 
Only unclear if you didn't properly read my previous post(s).
No, I didn't "invert" anything. I pointed out that 3 people were bashing me for something they themselves didn't comprehend.

So? What does that have to do with anything? I'm happy for you that you seem to have understood what I meant - if you had written that right away, instead of your cryptic one-sentence-response where you made it look like 1.5:0.5 strength should be the same as 3:1 combat odds, I might have excluded you from the list. But as it was, you were just the third person accusing me of mixing up the odds, and you were wrong. Just repeating what YOU have written later on will not change that (ozon at least had the decency to admit he overlooked something).

But obviously this leads now where, as such I will not respond that any longer.


About "spearman vs tank": As I have written before (see my post, #66), imo Civ, like any other game, is some form of abstraction, but also, again, a spearman unit beating a tank unit is actually quite realistic. Just look at the war in Iraq, where normal people with VERY limited resources take out one vehicle after another. So for me it stands to reason that a great commander would be able to organize some explosives and rig the area so that they destroy some tanks that foolishly went through a valley (or something like that).
So not only do I think it's somewhat realistic (not the galley vs. battleship, though, which I think should NOT happen, especially not as it does in Civ5), but I also it's good for the balancing since it gives the weaker civ some help. Still, the odds for something like this should be around 1%, not 10% or more.

Your so called normal people are using IED's and various forms of semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons. In otherwords they aren't spearmen they are better than riflemen.
 
Brian Reynolds made the best ones. Is rather astonishing that no one has yet made a strategy game anywhere near as good as SMAC was.

Yup. Sid was the innovator, but Reynolds was the genius. Civ2 + SMAC is the best game ever. Period.
 
Your so called normal people are using IED's and various forms of semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons. In otherwords they aren't spearmen they are better than riflemen.
No, they are not better than riflemen, since those people don't stand a chance in an open confrontation.

Imagine that a spearmen unit in 1950s is an old unit that was trained with spears and never got the resources from its government to get some modern weapons (but they WERE trained in military tactics). So the normal, lazy commander would just let them run around with their spears, while the good commander might use his connections or even part of his pay to organize at least some better weapons. So in an open confrontation, this unit would still get totally wasted, but maybe, just once in a while, there is a brilliant commander who finds a weakness and is able to exploit it with his 50 men, 5 AKs and some home-made explosives, resulting in an unexpected victory. Let's also keep in mind that these confrontations can last a year or longer! :crazyeye:

Anyway, that's how I always saw it, but I understand your pov as well. ;)
 
Your so called normal people are using IED's and various forms of semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons. In otherwords they aren't spearmen they are better than riflemen.

Civ2 had a fairly good representation of these guys, guerrillas was the unit. They were a little better than riflemen. But what was even better, that game had mechanism of using them that added another dimension to taking cities. When the city fell, it generated several of these guerrillas on the city's broad x. If one were depleted from taking the city, these could be quite a menace to even modern units. A person could edit the game to do similar things, generate other units from other events (events is what they called it). It was a great idea, but it died with Civ2.
 
My point is, when 2.0 v 1.0 battles arent calculated with proper math, the AI can never be equal to the player in terms of challenge..

I dont care what examples you bring about the real world about spearmen vs tanks, thats not the point.

The point is that if the player units always have a hidden magical bonus to the random dice-rolls, such as to get better odds than displayed when fighting equal foes, and being guaranteed a victory after several defeats in a row, the AI can never be strong.
No matter how amazing tactics the AI would be programmed to accomplish, if the core battle math itself gives the AI a disadvantage, the rest doesnt matter.

If we however have a battle system where 1 player unit vs 1 AI unit, or 8 v 2, or 2 v 8, have exactly equal chances, no hidden cuddle-bonuses, then the AI can step out of the mud and kick out butts.
 
To me, it's remarkable how the Civ5 dev team seems to have paid no heed what so ever to this man, or his ideas on game design (which brought us Civ1-4, alpha centauri, etc. nuff said.. he knows his stuff).

Sid hasn't had much influence in the Civ series sense civ1. He just came up with the idea and then other designers expanded on it. In fact Civ5 was supposed to have a lot of influence from Sid. I don't know how true that is though.
 
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