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Sid Strategies

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Spoonwood, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. killercane

    killercane Chieftain

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    Thanks for reminding me of what I used to know Spoonwood! I have just started a Sid Histo and this comes in handy! So much forgotten in the years since I last played Civ3...
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Glad to be of help Killercane. Good to "have you back" also. I know I used that strategy in a gauntlet about a year ago myself. I'd be interested to see how well it works in a histographic game with respect to score. I hope to see some of your notes on your game.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Thinking more on it, the gift/retake trick might work really, really well for a histographic game at any level. I don't know why I didn't make that connection before. There do exist some downsides:

    1. The nationality of your citizens change in whatever cities you gift them. So, you might not want to give them your core cities.

    2. You need plenty of cities to do this well. So, you'll have a lower population earlier on. But, this will probably pay off in more territory in a short time and in effect more population.

    3. AFAIK, the AI doesn't lose any units, as they teleport to their capital from the cities you've extorted.

    4. You lose any cultural buildings in cities that you give away.

    On the other hand though...

    1. AFAIK you don't lose markets, harbors, barracks, or any granaries. And those generally do a lot more in a histographic game than other buildings.

    2. You have more territory earlier, which not only increases score, but makes it easier for your units to move around.

    3. The AI opponent(s) has fewer cities. So, they can't produce as many units later on.

    4. Stopping a war due to weariness really shouldn't become a problem.

    5. The citizens in the cities you've won via extortion have your nationality, not the AIs.

    6. Establishing a beachhead on an archipelago seems much easier. Don't even send over units to the AI's island during the first "war". Just give them a bunch of size 2+ cities. Capture. Wait a few turns. Sue for peace getting as many cities as you can. THEN transport your army over to the cities over there. Now the first attack in the war can happen on your turn which, no doubt, makes the war easier. Also, if you can get multiple cities, that may also make it easier to maintain the beachhead. Heck, if you got three cities, you could pillage all roads around the two cities nearest the AI, give them to the AI, then start the war, and now that counter-Normandy stack heading your way moves a lot more slowly.

    The biggest (potential) problem here lies in getting the AI to redeclare on you, instead of waiting 20 turns, so that you keep your reputation in tact.

    Honestly, I suspect that the gift/retake trick might open the way for 90k on Sid, and if used well even on lower levels can significantly raise histographic scores down throughout pretty much all the tables. Though, admittedly, at this point I don't have game evidence to back up the claim that the gift/retake trick used several times can significantly raise histographic scores, doesn't it seem theoretically sound that it will?
     
  4. killercane

    killercane Chieftain

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    Well I should have explained myself better. I have a Sid game played to 70 AD; I have captured the Pyramids and Colossus, relegated the Byzantines to a far corner of the globe, and have the Americans almost finished. Sounds great you say, well...

    My problem is the research wall of Invention/Theology/Gunpowder. This has always been a big difficulty with Sid due to tech costs. In the ancient age, you can merrily trade around liberally and get to a tech lead with a fat treasury. At the age change, you can continue brokering Mono/Feud/Eng (no one got engineering for me in this game). But then the way forward is only upper/lower linear pathways. Even if you buy Theology @2nd price and trade for Invention (just an example), the gold you throw in is not gotten back quite so easily.

    So back to this game. Sumeria has 13K gold, I have no resources they lack nor any luxes, and they have all known techs. I thought the gift retake you reminded me of would be a good use of american lands since my army was already down there. This would garner me a few thousand gold hopefully.

    However, now I read and understand the "Emsworth Agreement". I remember talk of this many years ago (I think Moonsinger mentioned it to Own way back when). I never really gave it much thought, but now that I look at Moonsinger's games, it is obviously the power to the engine. A bunch of temples cash rushed, 2900 gold in upgraded knights, a number of odd luxury imports/exports, etc. To apply that theory in my case, if I were to have a luxury or two, the 13K Sumerian gold would be in my treasury and I would share the tech lead. There is a lot you can do with all that free excess gold! I think I will find a new map and see about enhancing my strategy.
     
  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I"d think using both legal Emsworth aggrements and the gift retake trick will work best
     
  6. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Chieftain

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    I am not sure what exactly you are planning to do, however keep in mind ending deals where you are the exporter via trade-route pillage destroys your reputation. You need to make deals that involve the AI's luxes or recources. Yours are fairly irrelevant.
     
  7. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Great thread. I have another question. I want to do a Sid Game with the mayans and found a good start. Is it possible to get the Republic slingshot on a huge pangea map with 8 opponents (some of which start with Alphabet)?
     
  8. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Hard to say as I never played with only 8 in the game. 12 or more I would say not, but you often you can get Lit. The lower number of civs, may prevent some of the contacts and give you a shot, but with the 18 starting units they will not take too long to discover the map.
     
  9. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Thanks for your answer. I made some calculations, based on the "what will AI research next" findings, assuming a rough estimation of the GPT the AI will have - and my own output of GPT - it would require enormous luck to get that, as Philosophy is so cheap and Sid AI's with room to expand will have enormous ressources for research whereas CoL is quite expensive.

    So maybe, in terms of efficiency, it would be better not to research by oneself (and even not to build the Great Library) at all in the ancient age and just to rely on the power of the disconnect-resources-exploit?

    Maybe, with that strategy, switching to Monarchy is more efficient than switching to Republic? If you don't need money urgently, having no war weariness could weight out the loss of income, you wouldn't have to research that incredible expensive Republic yourself (the AI probably won't do for a long time), switch earlier, go to war earlier, have more happy people in the non-core cities due to MP's.
     
  10. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I only played about 3 games of Sid as Republic as I find it too boring to play peaceful. I always go to Monarchy, well I did once play all the way out in despotism. I always try to get GLB at Sid, unless I was playing peaceful.

    It is not real hard as they often ignore lit for a long time. They of course do not use prebuilds and will not get the wonder city setup.
     
  11. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Did you use the "Emsworth-Agreement" in those games? It seems to me, that using this trick would relieve you of ll worries about tech - so what's the point to spend several hundred shields on the GL then?
     
  12. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    No, but I am not going to use any tricks. I tend to try to stcik to the standard prohibition used in SG's.
     
  13. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    If you want to try to slingshot the Republic, I'd expect your only chance is to research alphabet/writing/philosophy and trade for code of laws along the way. If the AI go for CoL before philosophy you can do it. Just stop research on philosophy with a turn left and cross your fingers. I don't have the nerves for this.
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Yes, I wouldn't do research initially by myself using these agreements, except *maybe* for The Wheel or Iron Working. If playing for diplomatic or space I might research Literature early, and would research more later. If playing for conquest or domination, I simply wouldn't do any research. If playing 20k, I'd do research and only play 80% archipelago. In any game I'll pick Republic, in research games for the extra commerce. For a military game, I think the extra cash which helps to buy more armies outweighs the war-weariness problem.
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Looking back on this, I have to say a big thank you to Lord Emsworth for the excellent tips he gave us here!
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    There's a thread or two around about how it's alright to play down a whole age in tech. If you have catapults and horses/swords taking on pikes and muskets is O. K. If you have knights and trebuchets, then taking on rifles is O. K. If you have cavalry and cannons, then fighting infantry is O. K.

    So, you end up an age or so in tech behind. But, then you can't find the most advanced strategic resources to pillage, say like rubber or maybe even oil. So, what will you do?

    A landlocked city can't trade without roads. Before airports, cities with harbors can only then trade to cities with harbors and can only trade strategic resources if one of them sits on top of a strategic resource. So, you can consider pillaging all of the roads around each of the enemy's cities. I reviewed an article where the player covered several cavalry with a defensive army. But, a knight army would suffice. And it would work out less costly to use 4 or so explorers.

    If you can manage to pillage the squares where roads could have been, what's the probability that the AI has one city planted on top of rubber and another on top of oil?

    One player also wrote: "Learn to counterattack. Let the AI bring its SOD to you. Bomb their roads leading into your territory so they can’t reach your cities and attack in one turn." I think he implicitly referred to artillery proper. But, with explorers the principle could be the same, so long as they don't have cavalry. Supposing you didn't use RoP abuse, you use explorers to pillage their border territory, run back two squares and your explores are safe. Then you kill the oncoming units until they slow down. Maybe that even nets you a leader. Then you counterattack hard.
     

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