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Sid Strategies

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Spoonwood, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

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    Have some time and I'm doing 0% research spaceship game on tiny map. First map with grassland cow and fresh water generated, playing against Korea, Byzantines and Russia. AI have researched to Astronomy, should enter IA in early AD's. Game going great, but I feel..dirty doing all these "tricks" and the game loses it's fascination. All you need is avoid being attacked early on.
     

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  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Hmmm... don't tiny maps often times have the most trouble trading for resources? War would slow thing down at 0% science, but with a tiny map I would guess that you'll eventually need it, since you might have trouble getting all the resources elsewise. Although, who knows? I remember having trouble trading for them on a standard Deity map once or twice. So, get your war on???

    I actually like it in a way. I don't feel dirty doing them myself. I have a strong feeling that Moonsinger used it in some of her Sid games. A GA in 490 BC on a small pangea map with China, and in 630 BC [SIC!] on a Huge pangea map also with China? How else would she have done that? It just slows turns down a good bit. I don't want to make a major mistake (I've made minor ones) doing it, so I double check deals and such. It requires a new sort of patience. I don't know if I want to finish my Egypt game with no scientific opponents and no alphabet opponents. I believe I researched Bronze Working, Mysticism, Writing, and maybe Iron Working just so I wouldn't want to get behind. Here's a screenshot:

    Spoiler :


    http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1262230200.jpg

    An optimally played game for SS or diplo finish date I'll guess consists of buying all techs until the industrial age or the high middle ages while you mostly buy libraries, univerisities, and granaries (maybe courts in some places). Then turning on research in the industrial age and maybe then taking cities quickly via throwing an RoP in with a luxury/resource "deal" if possible (maybe it's too soon). Then making peace quickly, followed by rushing courthouses, libraries, and universities in the captured towns.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Gyaathar almost certainly used it in the game here. He has Mauch Chunk owned by the Greeks in the middle of his empire with two ivory sources adjacent to it and one road connected to Mauch Chunk. He has three warriors and 6 workers placed on that road as the Iroquois. He's exporting iron, BUT when he disconnects the road to Mauch Chunk it only affects the trade route for ivory with the Greeks. Kind of sad though that Mauch Chunk lies right next to his FP city.
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I just notice this....

    The trade gpt for resources and techs/gold, then disconnect the trade route tactics I've discussed come as legal according to the HoF rulebook
    But, they don't come as allowed in XOTM competitions:

    At first glance this may seem inconsistent. However, you rarely find XOTM games at Sid level and not as rarely, but rare enough at Deity level. These tactics, in my opinion, only come as more beneficial in terms of finish date or potential histographic score than more regular strategies for Sid level and possibly some Deity games where the AI either can do research or has an economy. So, the disallowance of these sort of tactics in XOTM competitions I'll suggest encourages XOTM players to play more competitively with the AIs.

    The HoF doesn't have all too many Deity and Sid games, and really hasn't for years. The deliberate allowance of these sorts of tactics encourages high-level games. And more competition at these levels. And it helps people win at these levels and feel comfortable winning at those levels. So, the allowance of these tactics in the HoF also encourages HoF players to play more competitively with the AIs.

    Or something like that.
     
  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I tried this in a game I have going right now, except I did with a tribe I already had a war with, and we had 6 or so turns left on a peace deal. I either didn't do it right, or I couldn't renegoiate. I guess you have to renegoiate peace treaties which don't have x turns left on them?

    As Ignas already said, this whole thing really comes as EXTREMELY powerful on Sid. In my current game it's 300 AD and having taken all the gpt the AIs have as often as I could pretty much (I've left 5 or 6 gpt to them on occasions), and without even putting extra gpt into the economy, on a standard size 60% pangea map, I have over 30,000 gold in my treasury having already bought 2 or 3 armies and upgraded around 60 units from horses to knights to cavalry or horses to cavalry directly (without Leo's), and some 40 trebuchets to cannons also. I haven't built any banks either, just markets. And I've worker-building rushed some granaries, courthouses, barracks, and libraries even though I haven't done any research save for Iron Working and The Wheel.
     
  6. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Chieftain

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    Yes. The default state is that a peace treaty is renegotiatable, means when you first make contact you can go to the active deals tab and re-negotiate that deal. It is only when you have explicitly signed a peace treaty, either by re-negotition while at peace or in order to end a war, where you cannot do that.

    I think you can easily manage to have several hundred of knights or cavalries by roughly that time when you do it that way. A GA may really be helpful to build the horses, i.e. the units that you want to upgrade, in large numbers.
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I guess in Vanilla that might make more sense. I've ended up continuing to go horse-cavalry upgrades, buy armies, some frigates after I took all the Babylonian cities, and some settlers too such that I eventually wore that stash down. I guess I really didn't have too much after all.
     
  8. Gyathaar

    Gyathaar Warlock Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    I actually just played this game as a quick game to show the exploit, and hopefully get it banned in HOF.. to my surprise the tactic was allowed :p
    Very surpriced that game is still number 1

    The game was far from optimal played.. I didnt even use mapfinder for a good map.. I just regenerated till I saw a cityspot with atleast 2 luxuries next to it.. then just needed to build a city there, surround it with my own cities, and gift it to a civ that didnt have this luxury from before (and with trade route access).

    To further exploit it, the lux is not just used to buy techs, but to also funnel as much gpt to the civ as possible when it is researching, so it can research at 100% with its research bonuses, then when tech is available.. disconnect, do tech trade, disconnect and do tech trade again... if the civ turned out to be useless.. just reneg peace treaty, add the lux.. and disconnect to make them declare war on you for WH.. then after capture gift the city to another civ. ..

    also sell off the tech to all the other civs for gpt and do trades if possible
    since you are draining away all the gpt from the other civs from your tech sells, and only your pet civ has gpt, the other civs should soon become very backwards if you prefer this.. else you can gift them all the techs to keep them in the loop for more trades.
     
  9. Nikodemus

    Nikodemus Demigod

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    I haven't been around in a couple of years and was just randomly browsing the forum today. I have to say I was quite amused reading this thread and somewhere around post #10 thinking "Hmm, haven't I used this trick in some HoF-game..?". Then reading a little further and confirming my hazy memories. :)

    (I also got the idea from Lord Emsworth back then. Might have been some debate about the rules for CotM or something where it came up. I agree it doesn't feel entirely right, but I suppose there's a reason why it has been specifically green-listed for HoF.)
     
  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    It actually does come as specifically green-listed by the HoF rulebook. I know I didn't spot it in the rulebook the first or second time I read it, but after reading it a few times I did:

    I guess the abstract word "compensation" makes this tricky to spot. Tech in a trade qualifies as a 'compensation' for the goods you gave them. On top of this the word 'compensate' usually means to make up for something, even without a deal involved. For example, one might say "the blind man compensated by using a walking dog." Even when used in terms of a deal, it has this implication, at least if you believe Webster's as descriptive, as it diffentiates 'to compensate' from 'to pay' by writing that "compensate implies a making up for services rendered or help given."

    Good to know this thread sparked interest from some of the players who haven't played in a while!
     
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I don't believe I said it here, but the tactic can get used with roads to your borders everywhere, and using your capital city instead. It might work out best to

    1. Expand out like you would in any lower level game.

    2. Plan to pillage all squares directly adjacent (next to) to your capital.

    3. Ideally you want to find as many AIs as you can that have an extra luxury or resource. You only need one though for this to work though.

    4. Have either 3 workers if not playing industrious or 2 workers and a warrior on a square next to your capital.

    5. Road the square next to your capital.

    6. Set research and luxuries to 0% and maximize your economy. This means all tax collectors in all cities if you don't any have markets. If you have markets, you'll need to figure out whether tax collectors or working squares maximizes the appearance of your economy.

    7. Ring up your neighbor you can trade for an extra resource or luxury.

    8. You give them: gpt. DO NOT TRADE A LUXURY OR RESOURCE.
    They give you: a luxury or resource AND as much tech as you can get/want.

    9. The warrior pillages.

    10. Play as usual for the rest of the turn. Repeat steps 5. through 9. on the next turn.

    Once you get the feel for working with 3 non-industrious workers and 1 warrior, you can use the basic concept here with 6 non-industrious workers and 2 warriors to do as LordEmsworth suggests. Of course, you can do this from the beginning, but I'd recommend on practicing the basic steps here once or twice first before you do that.

     
  12. Tasonne

    Tasonne Deity

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    I recently tried out a few games on sid and have a question.

    Does the AI cheat or what?!

    How can the AI possibly have 25+ warriors by the 15th turn?? That's basically what happened when I played them, not to mention they all had 4+ cities before I had my second. Correct me if I'm wrong but both of those things, the cities and the warriors, are absolutely impossible, there's no way you can do it. No way.
     
  13. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Actually its the norm on Sid. They start with 3 settlers, 18 troops, iirc 4 workers. They also only pay 40% for things. So a warrior only cost them 4 shields.
     
  14. Tasonne

    Tasonne Deity

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    okay so basically it's a well known fact that they have a huge handicap?

    so when does that handicap start? emporer? demigod? when do they go from getting the same thing as you, to more?

    (i'm sure i could find this information if i really looked but since i'm already here :p )
     
  15. DWetzel

    DWetzel Chieftain

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  16. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Handicap starts at Monarch, Regent is basically even.
     
  17. Tasonne

    Tasonne Deity

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    Ah yes, but of course lol :D.

    So, all the people in the civ community have developed all kinds of exploits and procedures for beating the game on sid?
     
  18. ville-v

    ville-v Chieftain

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    Beating sid is quite simple and doesn't need any exploits if you have good start:

    1. Start on 5 billion pangaea
    2. Make lots of cities fast and capture/raze some to obtain key resources
    3. Make big army with lots of artillery
    4. Achieve tech parity and upgrade all units
    5. Kill everybody

    1. Start on 80% archipelago
    2. Build great library
    3. Fill your island and find everybody
    4. Achieve tech parity
    5. Start big war against #1 civ
    6. Build united nations and win

    Most important things are fast expansion (=lots of micromanagement) and successful wars (=lots of spearmen and catapults against musketmen and cavalry).
     
  19. Tasonne

    Tasonne Deity

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    That sounds insane lol I don't know if I'll ever try it ;)
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    What do you mean by "exploit"? Until we have a common aggreement about what should happen in the game, I don't see how "exploits" can really exist. It's not like the game is a conscious being that we can take advantage of or "exploit" say like how a stereotypical car salesman would "exploit" a car buyer. I don't see how we can act ethically or unethically towards a computer program (or at least any computer programs at present), so I don't see how you can exploit the game. Of course, game competitions can get exploited. They involve people. So, since people are involved, that's a different story.

    That said, even if "exploits" can happen in a game of civ III, I would maintain there *aren't* any exploits at Sid level. It's a very, very different game than any other level of civ III. At other levels, you might sell yourself short by using an "exploit" in that you could have played better... or could have learned to play better eventually... if you didn't use the exploit (such as using the gift/retake Great Library trick on Regent). In such a way, you're sort of the victim of your own exploitation. But, on Sid I don't believe you'll sell yourself short very often at all by using the same tactic. So, there isn't any exploitation.
     

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