killercane
Deity
Thanks for reminding me of what I used to know Spoonwood! I have just started a Sid Histo and this comes in handy! So much forgotten in the years since I last played Civ3...
Sid Strategies
- Thread starter Spoonwood
- Start date
Thinking more on it, the gift/retake trick might work really, really well for a histographic game at any level. I don't know why I didn't make that connection before. There do exist some downsides:
1. The nationality of your citizens change in whatever cities you gift them. So, you might not want to give them your core cities.
2. You need plenty of cities to do this well. So, you'll have a lower population earlier on. But, this will probably pay off in more territory in a short time and in effect more population.
3. AFAIK, the AI doesn't lose any units, as they teleport to their capital from the cities you've extorted.
4. You lose any cultural buildings in cities that you give away.
On the other hand though...
1. AFAIK you don't lose markets, harbors, barracks, or any granaries. And those generally do a lot more in a histographic game than other buildings.
2. You have more territory earlier, which not only increases score, but makes it easier for your units to move around.
3. The AI opponent(s) has fewer cities. So, they can't produce as many units later on.
4. Stopping a war due to weariness really shouldn't become a problem.
5. The citizens in the cities you've won via extortion have your nationality, not the AIs.
6. Establishing a beachhead on an archipelago seems much easier. Don't even send over units to the AI's island during the first "war". Just give them a bunch of size 2+ cities. Capture. Wait a few turns. Sue for peace getting as many cities as you can. THEN transport your army over to the cities over there. Now the first attack in the war can happen on your turn which, no doubt, makes the war easier. Also, if you can get multiple cities, that may also make it easier to maintain the beachhead. Heck, if you got three cities, you could pillage all roads around the two cities nearest the AI, give them to the AI, then start the war, and now that counter-Normandy stack heading your way moves a lot more slowly.
The biggest (potential) problem here lies in getting the AI to redeclare on you, instead of waiting 20 turns, so that you keep your reputation in tact.
Honestly, I suspect that the gift/retake trick might open the way for 90k on Sid, and if used well even on lower levels can significantly raise histographic scores down throughout pretty much all the tables. Though, admittedly, at this point I don't have game evidence to back up the claim that the gift/retake trick used several times can significantly raise histographic scores, doesn't it seem theoretically sound that it will?
1. The nationality of your citizens change in whatever cities you gift them. So, you might not want to give them your core cities.
2. You need plenty of cities to do this well. So, you'll have a lower population earlier on. But, this will probably pay off in more territory in a short time and in effect more population.
3. AFAIK, the AI doesn't lose any units, as they teleport to their capital from the cities you've extorted.
4. You lose any cultural buildings in cities that you give away.
On the other hand though...
1. AFAIK you don't lose markets, harbors, barracks, or any granaries. And those generally do a lot more in a histographic game than other buildings.
2. You have more territory earlier, which not only increases score, but makes it easier for your units to move around.
3. The AI opponent(s) has fewer cities. So, they can't produce as many units later on.
4. Stopping a war due to weariness really shouldn't become a problem.
5. The citizens in the cities you've won via extortion have your nationality, not the AIs.
6. Establishing a beachhead on an archipelago seems much easier. Don't even send over units to the AI's island during the first "war". Just give them a bunch of size 2+ cities. Capture. Wait a few turns. Sue for peace getting as many cities as you can. THEN transport your army over to the cities over there. Now the first attack in the war can happen on your turn which, no doubt, makes the war easier. Also, if you can get multiple cities, that may also make it easier to maintain the beachhead. Heck, if you got three cities, you could pillage all roads around the two cities nearest the AI, give them to the AI, then start the war, and now that counter-Normandy stack heading your way moves a lot more slowly.
The biggest (potential) problem here lies in getting the AI to redeclare on you, instead of waiting 20 turns, so that you keep your reputation in tact.
Honestly, I suspect that the gift/retake trick might open the way for 90k on Sid, and if used well even on lower levels can significantly raise histographic scores down throughout pretty much all the tables. Though, admittedly, at this point I don't have game evidence to back up the claim that the gift/retake trick used several times can significantly raise histographic scores, doesn't it seem theoretically sound that it will?
killercane
Deity
Well I should have explained myself better. I have a Sid game played to 70 AD; I have captured the Pyramids and Colossus, relegated the Byzantines to a far corner of the globe, and have the Americans almost finished. Sounds great you say, well...
My problem is the research wall of Invention/Theology/Gunpowder. This has always been a big difficulty with Sid due to tech costs. In the ancient age, you can merrily trade around liberally and get to a tech lead with a fat treasury. At the age change, you can continue brokering Mono/Feud/Eng (no one got engineering for me in this game). But then the way forward is only upper/lower linear pathways. Even if you buy Theology @2nd price and trade for Invention (just an example), the gold you throw in is not gotten back quite so easily.
So back to this game. Sumeria has 13K gold, I have no resources they lack nor any luxes, and they have all known techs. I thought the gift retake you reminded me of would be a good use of american lands since my army was already down there. This would garner me a few thousand gold hopefully.
However, now I read and understand the "Emsworth Agreement". I remember talk of this many years ago (I think Moonsinger mentioned it to Own way back when). I never really gave it much thought, but now that I look at Moonsinger's games, it is obviously the power to the engine. A bunch of temples cash rushed, 2900 gold in upgraded knights, a number of odd luxury imports/exports, etc. To apply that theory in my case, if I were to have a luxury or two, the 13K Sumerian gold would be in my treasury and I would share the tech lead. There is a lot you can do with all that free excess gold! I think I will find a new map and see about enhancing my strategy.
Lord Emsworth
Emperor
I am not sure what exactly you are planning to do, however keep in mind ending deals where you are the exporter via trade-route pillage destroys your reputation. You need to make deals that involve the AI's luxes or recources. Yours are fairly irrelevant.
Stoertebeker
Warlord
Great thread. I have another question. I want to do a Sid Game with the mayans and found a good start. Is it possible to get the Republic slingshot on a huge pangea map with 8 opponents (some of which start with Alphabet)?
Hard to say as I never played with only 8 in the game. 12 or more I would say not, but you often you can get Lit. The lower number of civs, may prevent some of the contacts and give you a shot, but with the 18 starting units they will not take too long to discover the map.
Stoertebeker
Warlord
Thanks for your answer. I made some calculations, based on the "what will AI research next" findings, assuming a rough estimation of the GPT the AI will have - and my own output of GPT - it would require enormous luck to get that, as Philosophy is so cheap and Sid AI's with room to expand will have enormous ressources for research whereas CoL is quite expensive.
So maybe, in terms of efficiency, it would be better not to research by oneself (and even not to build the Great Library) at all in the ancient age and just to rely on the power of the disconnect-resources-exploit?
Maybe, with that strategy, switching to Monarchy is more efficient than switching to Republic? If you don't need money urgently, having no war weariness could weight out the loss of income, you wouldn't have to research that incredible expensive Republic yourself (the AI probably won't do for a long time), switch earlier, go to war earlier, have more happy people in the non-core cities due to MP's.
So maybe, in terms of efficiency, it would be better not to research by oneself (and even not to build the Great Library) at all in the ancient age and just to rely on the power of the disconnect-resources-exploit?
Maybe, with that strategy, switching to Monarchy is more efficient than switching to Republic? If you don't need money urgently, having no war weariness could weight out the loss of income, you wouldn't have to research that incredible expensive Republic yourself (the AI probably won't do for a long time), switch earlier, go to war earlier, have more happy people in the non-core cities due to MP's.
I only played about 3 games of Sid as Republic as I find it too boring to play peaceful. I always go to Monarchy, well I did once play all the way out in despotism. I always try to get GLB at Sid, unless I was playing peaceful.
It is not real hard as they often ignore lit for a long time. They of course do not use prebuilds and will not get the wonder city setup.
It is not real hard as they often ignore lit for a long time. They of course do not use prebuilds and will not get the wonder city setup.
Stoertebeker
Warlord
Did you use the "Emsworth-Agreement" in those games? It seems to me, that using this trick would relieve you of ll worries about tech - so what's the point to spend several hundred shields on the GL then?
No, but I am not going to use any tricks. I tend to try to stcik to the standard prohibition used in SG's.
If you want to try to slingshot the Republic, I'd expect your only chance is to research alphabet/writing/philosophy and trade for code of laws along the way. If the AI go for CoL before philosophy you can do it. Just stop research on philosophy with a turn left and cross your fingers. I don't have the nerves for this.
Yes, I wouldn't do research initially by myself using these agreements, except *maybe* for The Wheel or Iron Working. If playing for diplomatic or space I might research Literature early, and would research more later. If playing for conquest or domination, I simply wouldn't do any research. If playing 20k, I'd do research and only play 80% archipelago. In any game I'll pick Republic, in research games for the extra commerce. For a military game, I think the extra cash which helps to buy more armies outweighs the war-weariness problem.
There's a thread or two around about how it's alright to play down a whole age in tech. If you have catapults and horses/swords taking on pikes and muskets is O. K. If you have knights and trebuchets, then taking on rifles is O. K. If you have cavalry and cannons, then fighting infantry is O. K.
So, you end up an age or so in tech behind. But, then you can't find the most advanced strategic resources to pillage, say like rubber or maybe even oil. So, what will you do?
A landlocked city can't trade without roads. Before airports, cities with harbors can only then trade to cities with harbors and can only trade strategic resources if one of them sits on top of a strategic resource. So, you can consider pillaging all of the roads around each of the enemy's cities. I reviewed an article where the player covered several cavalry with a defensive army. But, a knight army would suffice. And it would work out less costly to use 4 or so explorers.
If you can manage to pillage the squares where roads could have been, what's the probability that the AI has one city planted on top of rubber and another on top of oil?
One player also wrote: "Learn to counterattack. Let the AI bring its SOD to you. Bomb their roads leading into your territory so they cant reach your cities and attack in one turn." I think he implicitly referred to artillery proper. But, with explorers the principle could be the same, so long as they don't have cavalry. Supposing you didn't use RoP abuse, you use explorers to pillage their border territory, run back two squares and your explores are safe. Then you kill the oncoming units until they slow down. Maybe that even nets you a leader. Then you counterattack hard.
So, you end up an age or so in tech behind. But, then you can't find the most advanced strategic resources to pillage, say like rubber or maybe even oil. So, what will you do?
A landlocked city can't trade without roads. Before airports, cities with harbors can only then trade to cities with harbors and can only trade strategic resources if one of them sits on top of a strategic resource. So, you can consider pillaging all of the roads around each of the enemy's cities. I reviewed an article where the player covered several cavalry with a defensive army. But, a knight army would suffice. And it would work out less costly to use 4 or so explorers.
If you can manage to pillage the squares where roads could have been, what's the probability that the AI has one city planted on top of rubber and another on top of oil?
One player also wrote: "Learn to counterattack. Let the AI bring its SOD to you. Bomb their roads leading into your territory so they cant reach your cities and attack in one turn." I think he implicitly referred to artillery proper. But, with explorers the principle could be the same, so long as they don't have cavalry. Supposing you didn't use RoP abuse, you use explorers to pillage their border territory, run back two squares and your explores are safe. Then you kill the oncoming units until they slow down. Maybe that even nets you a leader. Then you counterattack hard.
I've thought of another strategy that I don't recall reading or talking about before. Or maybe it wasn't as fleshed out. Or maybe I've just forgotten. It's a bit complex and involves some risk, but doesn't have the drawback of awkward roads, cities. It's intended for a pangea map, but some of the basic ideas should apply to other map types.
1. Play on a map with many civs or try to have a start where you're in a corner. You don't want to have all civs as your neighbors. You can probably manage it on a huge pangea map being in the center of the map or a large map, and probably even a standard map usually.
2. Find some relatively rich tribe who is not your neighbor. Again, don't use your neighbor for this.
3. Call them up, and first use your gpt to acquire any gold, techs, and/or hard goods from them. It might be a little risky to use up all of your gpt (or excess gpt using temporary tax collectors), but doing that could pay off also.
4. Make them furious with you by repeatedly making "stupid" demands for things that they won't accept.
5. Attempt an immediate steal (not careful or safe). If it succeeds, hooray, you got a relatively cheap tech! As soon as you can, try another immediate steal on another turn. If it fails, your gpt deal is canceled, while you get to keep all of the hard goods that the AIs had, again, for the price of an immediate failed steal. I can confirm from playing around with a save that having a furious AI can change them from not declaring war to declaring war via a failed steal. I can also confirm that your gpt for gold reputation stays intact.
Now you're at war with one of the rich AIs on the planet. So, there's the danger of military alliances coming at you. Thus...
6. Sign your neighbors into war against that AI that declared on you. Or the neighbor that you fear. Again, use gpt for any hard goods that you find valuable to have. Hopefully your neighbors don't stay at war for 20 turns against the AI that declared on you, so that you don't have to pay full cost on the techs or gold (or maps, I suppose) that you acquired and can get them on the cheap.
Having an RoP signed with your target rich AI with explorers ready to pillage their strategic resources might help also.
If it's been a bit, and one of your neighbors in the same direction as the first AI that declared war on you cancels the military alliance with you and you feel you have enough firepower you might then go to war with them. Since the bulk of their army now is towards the first AI, you might successfully go at some of their cities, or let some of them come at you slowly and then counterattack them.
Or alternatively, you move towards the farther away AI and help fighting them, though if I recall correctly I tried something like that once and it felt a bit awkward.
1. Play on a map with many civs or try to have a start where you're in a corner. You don't want to have all civs as your neighbors. You can probably manage it on a huge pangea map being in the center of the map or a large map, and probably even a standard map usually.
2. Find some relatively rich tribe who is not your neighbor. Again, don't use your neighbor for this.
3. Call them up, and first use your gpt to acquire any gold, techs, and/or hard goods from them. It might be a little risky to use up all of your gpt (or excess gpt using temporary tax collectors), but doing that could pay off also.
4. Make them furious with you by repeatedly making "stupid" demands for things that they won't accept.
5. Attempt an immediate steal (not careful or safe). If it succeeds, hooray, you got a relatively cheap tech! As soon as you can, try another immediate steal on another turn. If it fails, your gpt deal is canceled, while you get to keep all of the hard goods that the AIs had, again, for the price of an immediate failed steal. I can confirm from playing around with a save that having a furious AI can change them from not declaring war to declaring war via a failed steal. I can also confirm that your gpt for gold reputation stays intact.
Now you're at war with one of the rich AIs on the planet. So, there's the danger of military alliances coming at you. Thus...
6. Sign your neighbors into war against that AI that declared on you. Or the neighbor that you fear. Again, use gpt for any hard goods that you find valuable to have. Hopefully your neighbors don't stay at war for 20 turns against the AI that declared on you, so that you don't have to pay full cost on the techs or gold (or maps, I suppose) that you acquired and can get them on the cheap.
Having an RoP signed with your target rich AI with explorers ready to pillage their strategic resources might help also.
If it's been a bit, and one of your neighbors in the same direction as the first AI that declared war on you cancels the military alliance with you and you feel you have enough firepower you might then go to war with them. Since the bulk of their army now is towards the first AI, you might successfully go at some of their cities, or let some of them come at you slowly and then counterattack them.
Or alternatively, you move towards the farther away AI and help fighting them, though if I recall correctly I tried something like that once and it felt a bit awkward.
LordofDread
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2022
- Messages
- 109
I first read this thread some weeks ago and found it very interesting. I know this is about Sid Strategies, but I decided to apply yours and Lord Emsworth's strat described here in my current Deity game (Huge Pangea Map).
First of all, it works damn well, I caught up with the tech leaders at Astronomy/Chemistry, got 10k Cash reserves after doing extensive cash rushing and 2000 gpt net income (1600 from other civs). Researched only Pottery and Writing.
So today it came to me, that on top of that, you could actually force the AI into a "Negative GPT-Economy"! You don't only extract all of their available GPT - you extract more than they can actually afford. To set this up, you need a civ that is basically willing to pay&receive GPT, and also important this civ needs to have two different Lux or Resources you currently dont have.
The beauty of it seems to me, that you could even extract GPT from Civ's that even didn't have any positive GPT left to begin with. I didn't test this yet, but will hopefully do so this week.
First of all, it works damn well, I caught up with the tech leaders at Astronomy/Chemistry, got 10k Cash reserves after doing extensive cash rushing and 2000 gpt net income (1600 from other civs). Researched only Pottery and Writing.
So today it came to me, that on top of that, you could actually force the AI into a "Negative GPT-Economy"! You don't only extract all of their available GPT - you extract more than they can actually afford. To set this up, you need a civ that is basically willing to pay&receive GPT, and also important this civ needs to have two different Lux or Resources you currently dont have.
The beauty of it seems to me, that you could even extract GPT from Civ's that even didn't have any positive GPT left to begin with. I didn't test this yet, but will hopefully do so this week.
Spoiler So here's the Setup: :
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LordofDread
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2022
- Messages
- 109
Ok I tested it just now using older save from my game. If anyone wants, I can provide the Savegame. It works!
Trading with Aztecs Iron and Horses at 260 AD. They did not have a single GPT to offer before trades.
Trading with Aztecs Iron and Horses at 260 AD. They did not have a single GPT to offer before trades.
Spoiler :
).
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templar_x
usually walks his talks
what you describe, in your latter and refined version, is what Spoonwood (i think still under his old nickname) posted here quite a while ago.
i understand well how it works. i also understand that it was obviously already in use in HoF-games, and by the rules righteously so. i did play around with it a little myself.
but i also agree, that it nullifies the essence of the game. so i deliberately forgo this option, even if it arises "by itself", and i definitely do not especially look out for it.
t_x
i understand well how it works. i also understand that it was obviously already in use in HoF-games, and by the rules righteously so. i did play around with it a little myself.
but i also agree, that it nullifies the essence of the game. so i deliberately forgo this option, even if it arises "by itself", and i definitely do not especially look out for it.
t_x
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