Siege Units - Design Issues

[DarthCycle]

Good thread. However, I think the biggest problem with siege weapon right now is that the AI never builds them. I have never seen a siege weapon in my last 15+ games.

Because of this, you

1) never have to worry to build defensive structure, like wall or castle, since the AI will not show up on your doorstep with a stack of catapult.

2) can use the dreaded SOD (stack-of-doom) tactic during offensive operations.

My change would be

1) remove the building requirements for siege weapons. Perhaps this will encourage the AI to build these units. Not the best solution but nothing else has been done so far to encourage the AI to build siege weapons.

2) have a defensive building or a unit that doesn't move, that can inflict collateral damage on enemy stacks around your cities. This should force players to reduce the abuse of SOD

 

[BeefontheBone]

2) have a defensive building or a unit that doesn't move, that can inflict collateral damage on enemy stacks around your cities. This should force players to reduce the abuse of SOD

You mean like a mage or your own siege weapons? The problem really lies in making the AI use the existing mechanics properly rather than amending the mechanics.

 

[felwar]

Good thread. However, I think the biggest problem with siege weapon right now is that the AI never builds them. I have never seen a siege weapon in my last 15+ games.

Could have a lot to do with how expensive the siege workshop is. I've actually always wondered why it was so hard to build.

 

[kenken244]

The bombarding effect of siege engines and fireballs is a psychological effect, not a mechanical one. Also no one is shooting directly at a wall with a fireball. It is like shooting arrows at a city. You would think that this is pointless cause arrows wont pierce stone. Never the less archers were very importaint in taking walls or shooting fire arrows over the walls to start fires.

what i ment in that post is that fireballs shouldnt be able to burn walls but still be able to destroy cultural defences

 

[Thennorin]

Could have a lot to do with how expensive the siege workshop is. I've actually always wondered why it was so hard to build.

Correct! I regularly see the AI build catapults, but only a few and not until long after workshops have been available to build. I think it's because the siege workshop is ridiculously expensive for the time it comes into play. This is why it took me so long to find out that siege is overpowered and I bet it's also why most people think fireball mages are better than siege (I think the high cost scares everyone off building it).

I believe the design team made it very expensive because of two factors:
1) to limit siege weapons (hence their power?)
2) the war chariot

War chariots are very, very strong units in v0.20. 6/3 Str, 3 movement iirc. While they don't get defensive modifiers, for city sieges they can't be equalled until you get axemen + copper and even then, I prefer the nimble chariot for their decent evasion rates plus mobility. Due to their movement, they're pretty awesome in the field, too. Hit and run all the way!

Also, according to the v0.21 changelog war chariots are going to use the ore model!! This is great news (for me) as the only thing that stops me using them is when I get iron. If the new war chariot base strength is 5, this then makes them superior to axemen in almost every way. Clearly the war chariot is intended to be a power unit.

This intention conflicts with the use of siege. Because the siege workshop is so expensive, the only time I'll build one for catapults is if I have a capital city that can use a few mines and switch to the god city civic (+50% prod in capital). Then it's feasible, if only in one city. Otherwise I find it better to focus on immediate defense.

I'd love to see the AI build more siege weapons. It might make more sense to have the war chariot require stables. I've never understood why they don't and it then clears the way to reduce the siege workshop cost by 25-30% (and reduce the catapult & cannon withdrawal rates, of course ).