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Sieging Extremely Difficult. Please Give Advice

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by jecjackal, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. jecjackal

    jecjackal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Hi Folks,

    I went straight from vanilla to BNW (I bought G&K but never really played more than a few hours). So I'm playing on Difficulty 6 (Emperor?) like I normally would. I'm Morocco and i'm fighting the aztecs. Its the medieval time period and this is what i've observed.

    1. Assaulting with longswordsmen does ~10 damage to a town. I don't know how much total hp they have but the bar barely moved. The swordsmen were ~20% life after an assault. Melee never used to be this weak.
    2. Apparently 1UP is of the past. The Aztecs have a treb, galleas both in the city. So now the city, ship and treb all bombard the same unit (assuming the first two volleys don't kill it).

    I used the following to assault a city. After 4 turns of sieging i lost most of it.
    3 swords
    1 pikeman
    1 composite archer
    2 trebs
    2 galleas.

    I'm glad the AI was made into a somewhat competent fighter but good lord. If i have to throw ~10 units at each city there's no way i'll win through conquest. If anyone has sieging advice or a like to a guide on how to play on higher difficulties I would really appreciate it.

    Thanks,

    Jec
     
  2. Jaymax

    Jaymax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
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    Are you trying to siege the capitol? I find that besieging the capitol is quite a bit tougher than besieging a regular city. You also have to factor in defensive buildings like castles, those add HP, and then there's the terrain & (I think) AI bonuses.

    I'm not very good at the game, but from what I've seen, you should never use melee to assault a city that has a full/mostly full HP bar, especially when they nearly wipe out your unit. Always hover over to get a rough idea on how much damage you'll deal and take. You may need to use more trebuchets, or lure out their naval units and destroy them so they don't instakill 2 units in one turn. You could also maybe add another composite bowman, although depending on the fortifications the city has, it may be worthless.

    This is all assuming it's a capitol, since that type of siege force should be more than enough for a generic city.

    (Sorry if this isn't all that useful)
     
  3. Socratatus

    Socratatus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,636
    City attacks now takes planning, which is pretty realistic. Attacking piecemeal will result in throwing away your men.

    a,Get some melee troops (at least 3-4 units or more) together to be the guys who will be the sacrifice! They`ll basically keep the city defences occupied.
    b,Get some more melee troops who will be your actual attackers.
    c,Get plenty of archers and \or siege engines together (3-4 or more).

    Prepare all these BEFORE any kind of attack.

    1. Move them together to the city.
    2. Use your sacrifical (cannon fodder- but don`t tell them that) troops to surround the city and keep it busy. The city will start wasting your troops. But it can only fire ONCE plus whatever units it has.
    3. At the SAME time have your archers and artillery surround behind the troops and start firing TOGETHER. They will start to whittle down the city defences.
    4. Have your 2nd set of melee troops ready and close.
    5. When the enemy city is really low about a third of its health. Start also attacking with your backup melee troops and you should get right in.

    That`s the basics.
     
  4. Jaymax

    Jaymax Chieftain

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    Actually, since this seems like a good time to ask this, can you help decide which unit the AI fires upon? Or is it just random?
    I've noticed that sometimes it attacks my artillery and archers, essentially crippling me, and sometimes it just attacks the cannon fodder, allowing me to easily take the city..
     
  5. mistermoo33

    mistermoo33 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
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    The problem is your army composition. You said your army looked like this:

    3 swords
    1 pikeman
    1 composite archer
    2 trebs
    2 galleas.

    In the classical or medieval eras, your army should look more like this:
    2-3 Melee units
    3-6 Ranged units
    2-3 Siege units

    Basically you should have way more ranged units and way less melee units. Melee units are horrible for actually sieging a city, they're only good for delivering the final blow.

    Also 1UPT is not exactly "1 unit per tile" but "1 unit per type per tile" where the types are:

    Civilian (worker, great person, etc)
    Land Unit (swordsman, archer, etc)
    Naval Unit (frigate, privateer, etc)

    This means the enemy had 2 ranged units (galleass + archer) in his city, which is probably why it was so hard to take.
     
  6. jecjackal

    jecjackal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    Wow guys, thanks for the help. I guess sieging really is different from vanilla.

    So for the fodder units, I should just use "fresh" infantry and save my vetted infantry to field battles?

    Also is there an easy way to see if a city is upgraded defense wise? They had 35 strength which seemed high but that might have been also due to the fact there was a ship and a trebby in it.

    Finally, how do you folks go about making the units. If i spend the time producing the volume of units needed to take a city, i'm far behind on econ. Should I rely on straight up purchases/faith to bolster my ranks?

    Thanks,

    jec.
     
  7. superliminal

    superliminal Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2013
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    I tend to use purchases (also I like building exp. building). Also pillaging can be useful to restore a little health, as well as giving a couple units the medic promotion. Taking a city like you describe is especially difficult as they can essentially kill a unit per turn and I found, if it's not going well, it's best to retreat, amass a much larger force, moving it in all at once.

    In my most recent game, I was finding the cover promotions especially useful for city assaults to reduce some of the incoming fire.

    Edit: I've also had fun using the Great General's citadel offensively, as your units heal much faster in friendly terrain + it helps prevent counterattacks.
     
  8. Loucypher

    Loucypher King

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    Jun 3, 2012
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    797
    You can see it in the graphics. The wall is very easy to spot, obviously, but if you look properly you'll also see if they got a Castle or not. If they already got a castle AND it's on a hill, then things will be rather hard in that time period, yes. Until you have Cannons + Crossbows, at least.
    The trick to producing units is that some cities can be focussed just on military production whilst others focus on your economy/science. Rushbuy whatever reinforcements you need immediately and go from there.
    Galleass is nice in providing support, but it cannot take heavily fortified cities. It just won't do enough, ever. If you do wish to mount a naval assault, wait for frigates. Galleass can help picking off unwalled coastal towns, but a bastion like this, they won't do much. Get a few Trebs there, seems you're gonna need them.
     
  9. Socratatus

    Socratatus Emperor

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    Interesting that. Sometimes the AI gets smart and attacks your siege or longbow units first. I don`t know how it decides. If I get melee units there first it tends to concentrate on them. I usually have 3 or 4 or more artillery units just in case it starts on them, but by this time I will have battered the city enough so I might only lose one arty piece.

    It`s all a bit of a judgement call, you have to adapt to what the defending AI does. As long as you have a good few units there and keep your arty back,as I mentioned before, defending, it can`t get them all before you take the city.
     
  10. kurtkage

    kurtkage Warlord

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    Location:
    USA
    As has already been noted, the city may have a castle / be on a hill. Also the archer counts as a garrison further increasing strength a little.

    I think your bigger problem is 35str is an era ahead of the units you are attacking with. This is why you are seeing your longsword do 10dmg and take a lot of dmg from the cities ranged attack. I mean Riflemen have 34str iirc hehe. This is not to say that one cannot take a city with higher strength than the units one has, but ranged and positioning is going to be important.

    As far as AI targetting, they will fire on injured units first typically. This is part of why your melee can "keep the city busy" as an earlier poster was saying, because once they take that first hit and are injured, the AI will target them instead of your siege/ranged that are full health. Now once that first melee is killed or you move him out to heal, they could end up targeting your ranged units. One thing you can do if needed is attack the city with a fresh melee as your wounded one is moving out to heal, that way you have a "new injured" unit over the ranged.
     
  11. pezit

    pezit Chieftain

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    Fortify melee units in cover while you bombard the city with siege weapons until you can take it with one attack with a melee unit, never attack with melee units unless you have a vastly bigger army than the AI, you need their health to tank all the bombardment. Try to move into range with everything at the same time, so you don't come in waves and try to have a great general with your army.
     
  12. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Yes. AI is quite exploitable here. In most cases it would try to concentrate fire & attack your most damaged unit. So use your cannon fodder units to attack something once & then keep them fortified so that AI targets them.

    Another important note. Pillaging improvements heal 25 HP! Your units can pillage & attack in the same turn so use this to survive in enemy lands.




    Promote your cannon fodder units with cover promotions (which reduce ranged damage taken).



    Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  13. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    what it really sounds like is that the OP waited too long to attack (what era the other civ is in is important), or picked the wrong target. Trebuchets are fine vs. 35 defense cities, but you'll need at least 4 of them to break it down quickly enough. Longswords are just fine vs. 35 defense cities, but you leave them to clean up, rather than start the fight.

    Composite bows shouldn't even be considered for this city as the city can wipe one out per turn by itself. Galleass's are fine, but aren't a replacement for a trebuchet unless they have 3 range (or you have 2 Galleass per trebuchet you replace).
     
  14. pnwciv

    pnwciv Chieftain

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    Another consideration. The ai gets unhappy penalties just like you do, and the. Strategic resource penalty. Focus on pillaging those tiles!
     
  15. Xichael

    Xichael Warlord

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    May not be much help, but i'm a lazy schmuck and don't go to war until I have researched Dynamite if I can help it :D
     
  16. sukha

    sukha Chieftain

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    If the city is coastal and you are progressed to a point where you/enemy can have Galleass you should always just rape Coastal cities with those. Then just capture it with whatever.
    Ranged units should be your focus. Something like 2swordsman 1pike is totally enough melee units, just replace if you loose any.

    1cavalry unit is a good idea to have. If for some reason you had to retreat all your melee units because they soaked up the damage, you can always just rush in with cavalry from many tiles away.

    There can never be enough Ranged units in your army, spam until your treasury runs out.
    Swap units in and out of the fire range, sometimes you only have like 3 tiles for your ranged units, keep reserve ranged behind them and swap them out as they get damaged. It depends on the ground and road availibility, if its good and flat I usually rush in with all ranged for maximum impact. You can retreat easily on flat ground.

    As for upgrades, all units get the ranged defence buff for -33% damage from ranged sources.
    Melee units should get the medic upgrades after the range buff.
    Ranged ships always go for dmg vs naval then range and line of sight.
     
  17. pwnerer

    pwnerer Chieftain

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    Step 1: build a strong base with lots of income.

    Step 2: build a lot of trebs.

    Step 3: get Dynamite first.

    Step 4: upgrade 10 trebs to artillery

    Step 5: Lay waste to the planet
     
  18. Knut_Are_M

    Knut_Are_M Prince

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    To siege cities you need 1 Knight or horseman and lots of crossbows.

    It is that easy. That is how cities are sieged online. cities go down in 1 or 2 turns after the units are gone.

    The only exceptions to that rule are cities that cannot be surrounded by Archers.

    Longswordsmen/pikemen etc should not be used to siege cities. In fact longswordsmen should proabably not be buildt at all unless there is jungle or forest nearby, and you got disipline, armory and heroic epic.

    Impi can be used to siege cities for a short period of time if you go honor. +15%x2 really helps vs cities. Also impi murder all classical units and come way before crossbowmen by some 10-15 turns.

    Siegeing cities usually involves lots of Archers and 1 mounted unit, or higher Tech units then Your opponent.

    Do not try trebuckets or catapults to siege With, they get murdered very quickly With the Archer defence. The exception is if you play zulu since impi takes care of the units and you may want some trebuckets to do some damage to high strength cities.

    Galeassses and especially frigates are very good all purpose ships of there era.
    Caravels can be used for los, prvateers can be buildt 1 of to snipe a city. Generally privateers should not be massed unless you lack iron since they loose 3 to 2 vs frigates. and 2 to 1 vs ships of the line.
     
  19. Miravlix

    Miravlix King

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    Sad to see only MadDjinn gives good advice and everyone else keep ignoring it.

    If your units is getting eaten by city defense in one turn, you're OUT TECHED, it's that simple.
     
  20. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    I am also not a big fan of taking cities before dynamite. The mass of units seem like a big waste, I played a bit more aggressively in BNW now. The AI will kill of wounded units first. So keep your crappy gifted units form CS and throw them at the city. Key is to have about 4 trebs that move in on the first "attack turn" and can all fire on the second.

    Also build mounted units. These are great for actually taking out the enemy units before the siege and deliver the final blow.
     

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