Simplified Combat in Civ4

[Roland Johansen]

It seems to me that combat is actually more complex in civ4 with all those individual unit promotions, instead of the much simpler attack/defend values that we are so used to. What makes me worry is how we are going to manage our army when the number of units go up to 100+, to micro-manage their unit promotion status, or to find THE unit that has attended the "elite" status etc. I have another concern: invididual solider's status can't be represented as "regular" "veteran" "elite" as before in the unit menu, but as the amount of promotion they received. When we have a big stack of soliders it will be difficult to represent their individual promotion concisely. Are these promotions expressed as icons (40+ icons...) or numbers? (e.g. +50% attack for solider with amphibious assault promotion on a ship. But this number will keep changing when they move) Do we have screenshots for this?

While there are 40 promotions in the game, not all of them are completely different. Some of them are different levels of the same bonus. I also hope/think that not all promotions are available to every unit. A cavalry unit should not be able to get the promotions that enhance its artillery damage or make it an excellent city defender or attacker. It should be able to get the power bonus (general bonus to unit strength) and the shock bonus (bonus against melee units) and the flanking bonus (bonus to retreat) for instance. If I was going to design the graphical representation for the promotion levels then I would add icons after the names of the units and color these icons bronze, silver or gold to represent the level attained in this promotion type. I wouldn't expect to see more than three icons after the name of an experienced unit. Still, it can be a nightmare to find the right unit in a large stack, but not as big of a nightmare as one might think.

I also read, that if you attack-move the whole stack, that the AI then automatically picks the unit with the best chance to win (the right promotions and unit type for the job).

 

[André Alfenaar]

I also read, that if you attack-move the whole stack, that the AI then automatically picks the unit with the best chance to win (the right promotions and unit type for the job).

Actually this IS a problem, because in general you would want to give your green inexperienced troops battle experience before bringing in your elite troops.

So as a workaround you had better group your units in seperate groups according to experience and attack with the inexperienced group first and save the group consisting of elite troops for last. This means a lot of time is probably spent on reshuffling your troops to get the most out of it...

Does anyone know what determines which unit is shown on the map if the group consists of different types of troops? The strongest one?

 

[The Fjonis]

Interesting.. Many good points. I really wonder how they've solved this. But, as always, I guess we'll just have to trust the developers. I'm sure it will work out all right in the end.

 

[Heart_of_Gold]

Basicly, spearmen don't beat tanks anymore

 

[Lahdoz]

The combat system definitely sounds more complex because there are so many factors, but it still just comes down to calculating a percentage, and the RNG.

I think a balance has been struck between reality and gameplay. The unit's specific qualities matter more than a generic attack/defence value factored with terrain. Stack movement and grouping will take more planning and strategy. I'm looking forward to it. As much as I love Civ III, I want a game that is different, I want something new but addiction worthy.

 

[Herr Doktor]

Defense/offense value mixed it's not the main problem.
Units from different eras, for example one more advanced and one terribly ancient, should have different malus/bonus against each other. I'll explain: <- chance this happen, 0,001% except in particular situations, maybe tank completely taken by surprise by spearman forces on mountains ... and even so the tank division can't be totaly defeated.

 

[apatheist]

Arguably, they haven't replaced the old attack/defense values with just one strength number. They've (possibly) replaced it with one number for combat vs. melee units, another for combat vs. ranged attack units, another for combat vs. cavalry, and possibly more. That may be obscured behind something like:

Pikeman: Strength 3 (+100% vs. mounted units)

But it works out to be basically the same as:

Pikeman:
Strength vs. Melee: 3
Strength vs. Ranged: 3
Strength vs. Mounted: 6

 

[wit>trope]

Actually this IS a problem, because in general you would want to give your green inexperienced troops battle experience before bringing in your elite troops.

So as a workaround you had better group your units in seperate groups according to experience and attack with the inexperienced group first and save the group consisting of elite troops for last. This means a lot of time is probably spent on reshuffling your troops to get the most out of it...

Does anyone know what determines which unit is shown on the map if the group consists of different types of troops? The strongest one?

I hope to the heavens that they will include the ability for the player to custom select which unit attacks just like in Civ 3.

 

[Why0Why]

I think lahdoz summed it up best for me: I love Civ 3 and have been playing for years, but it has grown old for me. I like what I am reading about Civ 4, so I am more excited about this than anything else I have seen in awhile.

 

[warpstorm]

I hope to the heavens that they will include the ability for the player to custom select which unit attacks just like in Civ 3.

Don't stack attack. Move one unit at a time into the square, I imagine, just like Civ3.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Personally, I wouldn't be suprised to discover that players can autoselect which unit in a stack attacks first. It is nice to know that, if you're not overly fussed about it, that the computer will pick for you. Before you try sending lots of green units in to soften up a unit, though, remember that-if the unit your are softening up survives-then that unit will gain epxerience, and could gain promotions in the process (i.e. it could backfire).
Secondly, don't forget that the Combat Strength of a unit will also impact on the damage it does each hit, which not only means that a tank will rarely be hit by a spearman, but that a spearman will do little to no damage when/if it does!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well we don't know that the "Chance of hitting" varies (we do know that the damage per hit varies.

Actually if I was going to deduce what they were doing it would be

1. Each round of battle each side hits the other 100%
2. The damage done is determined by relative strengths plus a random factor (so the tank in Tank v. Spearman takes 3-9 damage per hit, the spearman takes 30-90 damage per hit).. assuming spearman is 1/10 the strength of the tank in this combat (all multipliers included)
(ideally units would all tend to retreat in bad conditions)

That would be
A simple
and
B predictable (the absolute most damage a spearman could do to a tank would be 36 (if the spearman rolled high and the tank low))

 

[thisismyusernam]

While there are 40 promotions in the game, not all of them are completely different. Some of them are different levels of the same bonus. I also hope/think that not all promotions are available to every unit. A cavalry unit should not be able to get the promotions that enhance its artillery damage or make it an excellent city defender or attacker. It should be able to get the power bonus (general bonus to unit strength) and the shock bonus (bonus against melee units) and the flanking bonus (bonus to retreat) for instance. If I was going to design the graphical representation for the promotion levels then I would add icons after the names of the units and color these icons bronze, silver or gold to represent the level attained in this promotion type. I wouldn't expect to see more than three icons after the name of an experienced unit. Still, it can be a nightmare to find the right unit in a large stack, but not as big of a nightmare as one might think.

I also read, that if you attack-move the whole stack, that the AI then automatically picks the unit with the best chance to win (the right promotions and unit type for the job).

The unit promotion systems hold EXCELLENT PROMISE for civ specific specialized armies. Let me be specific. Nation A, which is located primarily in a jungle envirooment, can develop its army using promotions so that its army is specially adapted to jungle environments, while nation B located in mountainous areas might develop its army to be most effective in hills (by selecting using woodsman and guerilla promotions). Just because two civs have the same units doesnt mean the units will be as effective.

Essentially, playing on an earth map, the Russian player who has most likely promoted his army to focus on speed and mobility (in order to facilitate movement across the Russian steps) will find itself with a home advantage when being invaded by an enemy whose troops have been trained to fight mainly in forests, and likewise the Russian player should probably be wary of fighting a south american civ in the forests of central america where the south american civ will most likely have forces whose leaders have specially prepared for jungle fighting.

The one BIG FLAW I see in all of this is that I hope the AI will not just randomly promote its forces, but base its promotions on the type of environment that their civ is located in. Otherwise, with the human player creating selective armies of units specialized to fight in certain terrain, versus an AI who has just been upgrading his units piecemeal and not specifically in order to take advantage of the terrain of his native land, the result could be a very broken game in which the AI is at a constant disadvantage against the human player. Hopefull this will be addressed, and I will not feel like I am cheating against the AI when I use the promotions system properly on my own troops.

 

[Commander Bello]

[...]

The one BIG FLAW I see in all of this is that I hope the AI will not just randomly promote its forces, but base its promotions on the type of environment that their civ is located in. Otherwise, with the human player creating selective armies of units specialized to fight in certain terrain, versus an AI who has just been upgrading his units piecemeal and not specifically in order to take advantage of the terrain of his native land, the result could be a very broken game in which the AI is at a constant disadvantage against the human player. Hopefull this will be addressed, and I will not feel like I am cheating against the AI when I use the promotions system properly on my own troops.

You've put your finger on it. Yet, there is another problem:
Even if the AI would promote the right unit with the right promotion, will it be capable to select the right unit afterwards?
If due to expansion the AI now will have to make use of mountain-skilled units , will it be able to re-locate them although there are non-mountain-skilled units nearer to the next battle theatre?
Or would it lead it's step-units into a mountain battle, loose and then have to defend in the steps with the mountain-units?

This could really turn out to become a problem, since the human player will know how to use which unit and by that the differentiated promotion system might become a major advantage for the human player.

 

[alms66]

Before you try sending lots of green units in to soften up a unit, though, remember that-if the unit your are softening up survives-then that unit will gain epxerience, and could gain promotions in the process (i.e. it could backfire).

IIRC, it was two previews ago that it was stated units can only gain experience by attacking - not defending.

 

[Robi D]

You've put your finger on it. Yet, there is another problem:
Even if the AI would promote the right unit with the right promotion, will it be capable to select the right unit afterwards?
If due to expansion the AI now will have to make use of mountain-skilled units , will it be able to re-locate them although there are non-mountain-skilled units nearer to the next battle theatre?
Or would it lead it's step-units into a mountain battle, loose and then have to defend in the steps with the mountain-units?

This could really turn out to become a problem, since the human player will know how to use which unit and by that the differentiated promotion system might become a major advantage for the human player.

If i was working at firaxis when someone came up with the idea of unit promotions and how they would work, the very first question i would have asked is can we get the ai to use them properly. Now if they have not done that i would be extreemly surprised because this is a very big feature in the game and if the ai were not to use them in a acceptable fashion then it would ruin the game to keep it in, so i trust that it will work, but no doubt when human players get use to the system they will probably do it better then the ai. Now as a player even if i lived in a region that had lots of forests i would pick a large portion of units to get woodsman promotions, but i would use other promotions with other units in case i needed to operate in another area, so the ai should do the same. I know the ai has never used the navy and airforce properly in civ3, but that was one part of the combat system, the unit promotions are the whole combat system, which is why i believe they would make sure it works, as the game would fail entirely

 

[schwanenfeldii]

IIRC, it was two previews ago that it was stated units can only gain experience by attacking - not defending.

If my memory serves me right, they said units gains more experience attacking than defending.

 

[Philips beard]

If my memory serves me right, they said units gains more experience attacking than defending.

Yep, you're right!

 

[joethreeblah]

If i was working at firaxis when someone came up with the idea of unit promotions and how they would work, the very first question i would have asked is can we get the ai to use them properly. Now if they have not done that i would be extreemly surprised because this is a very big feature in the game and if the ai were not to use them in a acceptable fashion then it would ruin the game to keep it in, so i trust that it will work, but no doubt when human players get use to the system they will probably do it better then the ai. Now as a player even if i lived in a region that had lots of forests i would pick a large portion of units to get woodsman promotions, but i would use other promotions with other units in case i needed to operate in another area, so the ai should do the same. I know the ai has never used the navy and airforce properly in civ3, but that was one part of the combat system, the unit promotions are the whole combat system, which is why i believe they would make sure it works, as the game would fail entirely

It will be fun to set up a map with seperate regions, such as one that is entirely forests, and one that is hills, and whatever else there is, with lots of barbarians so that units get upgraded to their own type.

Then maybe have a middle area which is more mixed, or more mixed the closer it gets to center.