Sirian's Infantry Variant - Succession Game Challenge

Playing tomorrow after work (10-6)...writeup to follow sometime tomorrow evening. Would have played tonight but LK8 has been waiting longer, and I just love building up city infrastructure and watching the gold per turn ticker climb from +100 to +200 over the course of 20 turns.
 
There wasn't much important that I did. We finished mapmaking 6 turns in, Romans finished the Pyramids on the same turn. I go for Literature next, still running the defecit. We gain the Colossus, start on the Lighthouse. The colossus kicks off a Golden Age. meh.

Nottingham switched production to galley after I get mapmaking, our first boat is beginning a counter-clockwise circumnavigation of our rock. Hastings and Canterbury are both started on Harbors, I whipped temples in Oxford and Warwick, they should be expanding in just a little bit.

Workers are continuing improvements in the Nottingham and London regions, while a second crew is bringing Irrigation to the desert and plains regions. They are now irrigating the plains cattle and working their way east to the area about Hastings. Oxford is either attached to the road net or is one or two turns away from being so.

Lit should be finished in the next 5 turns or so, I don't know if the Library is what we want to be going for (or if it will be able to be built when we do finish it...or if we'll actually get tech from it if we do build it). In hindsight while I'm writing this up, Code of Laws or Masonry or Iron Working would have been safer choices. Oh well, c'est la vie.
 
I'd really rather you had swapped to the Lighthouse from the placeholder, Carbon, not let it be built. :( We may still get the wonder we need most, but my gut says the odds are not good, since the cascade has not been broken. Still a bunch of turns left to go on it.

The worst thing that could happen to us is to remain isolated, with no contact, through half the game, because we miss out on trade and suffer for lack of intelligence on our rivals. I know I chose this isolated scenerio, but I did intend to work our way out of it as soon as possible. If there is a connection via sea squares to more land, we could make contact sooner (without having to send galleys on suicide missions), and possibly trade sooner, MUCH to our benefit (with all these incense lying around). Or... maybe not, but it would certainly improve our odds and give us the naval edge until the industrial age.

Competition for ancient wonders is simply brutal. If your game plan revolves around one, you have to aggressively move to grab it, and usually only get one shot at it.

Even if we can make contact and reach other lands without the Lighthouse, we would need it to be able to trade our goods, which could make quite a difference, as we might trade them for tech, cash, maps, or other resources. We'll see how it goes.

You did a great job on your turn in the Builders game. And it may be that we weren't going to get the Lighthouse anyway (we'll find out if someone else builds it in the next dozen turns or so), or that we may still yet get it. The AI's will have to come conquer us for the game to be lost, so even if this goes badly and our shields go down the drain, we'll work out of it.


There is good news from my turn. We've found land! Our galley spotted strong sea currents in the water off our southwest coast and sailed out to investigate, and spotted land! Our scouts are exploring this new island now, and settlers are due to be produced on the next turn to plant our flag over there. I do not yet know if this is inhabited territory, but it appears to be a small unclaimed island, capable of holding two cities.

There are more sea currents off the southeast coast, which most likely lead to more land. I set Nottingham to build a second galley after it completed its library.

Which is the other thing: I swapped our four "main" cities, near London, from Harbor to Library, and didn't whip any of them. I figured we may have to do a lot of our own research, and might as well cement our place as the dominant culture, too, for what that may or may not do for us down the line. I whipped temples in the colonies that didn't have them yet, then set all of them to harbors. Every last one of those towns will need the harbors just for food, but we should perhaps delay harbors on cities that don't need the food or aren't going to be building lots of ships early on, to save on the maintenance cost. Our five inner cities can do without them for a while, I think, until there is nothing left to build.

We have two iron. I should have researched Mysticism next, to give us a THIRD backup wonder in case Lighthouse is stolen from us. After Masonry comes in, I urge increase in science and research into Mysticism. If we do lose the Lighthouse, it would be nice to get something out of those shields. After Mysticism, we may want to get Math (to be able to build some catapults, going to need lots of artillery eventually and they do upgrade), and on to Construction, which we need soon to get out from under the size 6 limitation.

Considering that we do seem to be connected to more land via sea squares, if we turn out not to get the Lighthouse, we'll be stuck unable to trade our incense for another 1500 years, but at the moment it looks like we may make contact with somebody before AD arrives. Cross your fingers and pray that the AI's are building the Oracle and the Great Library, and not the Lighthouse.

Now that we have more expanding to do, and more things to build, we probably won't need to start building lots of swordsmen soon, but it might not hurt to build one veteran unit, just to have one (that intimidates the AI a little). Stay away from all the red dots for now (one of them between York and Nottingham turns out to be a dud anyway because of overlap with the on the point above nottingham). Grab the new island asap. Based on what I could see, here are the good city locations, which make use of all the land, and grab the fishing.

- Sirian
 

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Turn Order is:

Sirian
Zed
Charis
Jaffa Tamarin
Carbon Copy

Good luck, Zed. You still have some Golden Age to work through, it should come to an end near the close of your reign.

- Sirian
 
Whoops!

I had read through the posting history prior to taking my turn, and I didn't really notice anything that said that the Colossus was a placeholder for the Lighthouse (I just looked through again and it was alluded to in the post of Sirian's first turn), and, to be honest, I was a bit fatigued and had forgotten that prebuilding with a palace was doubly impossible in London (not having masonry, and already having the palace in that town) so I figured that the Colossus was there for being built so I built it :spank:. Replaying my turn, I "only" blew 14 turns of production (19 till the Lighthouse if I switched like I was supposed to, 33 the way I did it, actually 31 but the colossus was 2 turns off)...and a Golden Age :mad:. If they cascade to the Lighthouse during Zed's turn, then we probably wouldn't have had a chance at it, anyhow (but since the player takes the first turn, we might have gotten the Colossus back on the next turn if it hadn't been eaten in the cascade already). If they get to it on Charis's turn, though, then it's entirely my fault.

Does the Lighthouse give trade routes over sea squares (i.e. is it just like discovering Astronomy in the Ancient era except for Copernicus)? I do know that it doesn't give trade routes over ocean squares even if it's narrow enough that we can cross them.

If it turns out that we're eventually ringed by ocean and not just sea, not even the Lighthouse could help us trade goods.

But still, my move was dumb :(
 
Fortune favors the bold. Well, ok, dunno if it favors the sleepy, but I'm thinking that i) our GA will get a lot extra shields faster towards great lighthouse, and ii) the AI seems to just love the Oracle no end. We may very well end up getting the lighthouse afterall.

Sea currents? I like that phrase. I've not looked much for patterns, but perhaps that does lead to shallow water, and new land, friend, or foe. :P

Those spots for cities look right, and that should be a helpful little island. On a similar naval little island game, I was able to position a warrior, worker, or catapult (some cheap unit) on all the coast squares and render it impervious to ground assault until Marines are available. (Maybe not best use of a dozen units, but it does give one peace of mind when surrounded by warmongers.)

good luck Zed
Charis
 
Ok, I'll try to grab the game tonight and get a quick batch of turns in.
 
Here's the scoop:

530 BC (1): Researched Masonry, started Mysticism. Science pumped by 10% to get it in 4 turns instead of 5... Settler completed at Canterbury, started another. Library completed at Hastings, starting Harbour.

490 BC (3): Nottingham builds Galley, starts Settler.

450 BC (5): Canterbury completes Settler, starts Scout. Mysticism discovered, we start Code of Laws. Science upped to 60%, we get it in 7 turns.

430 BC (6): Nottingham completes settler, starts Swordsman.

410 BC (7): Canterbury completes scout, starts Harbour. Dover founded & starts temple. New galley with scout and settler starts toward eastern sea current area.

390 BC (8): Golden Age ends. We are now running at a deficit while we research Code of Laws. Up to the next player to decide whether to rebalance the treasury after we finish.

370 BC (9): Brighton founded & starts temple.

350 BC (10): Nottingham completes swordsman, starts Harbour. Our eastern Galley with scout and settler crosses sea currents and finds land! Unfortunately it's occupied by a dark blue culture. Our western Galley spots sea currents to the west of Dover, has a scout but no settler aboard.

No whipping done this turn. Up to next player to decide if it's needed to complete Harbours etc. Great Lighthouse still a goodly ways from completion. No contact made yet with dark blue culture as we just wound up next to them on my last turn. We have a couple warriors ready in Newcastle to be ferried over to Dover and Brighton at some point.
 
350 BC (0) - Major Charisinfantry ascended to the throne of England,
and looked over a world map that was dark outside our own lands.
He was eager to see if the "Great Lighthouse" could be finished
on his shift... Other than that, everything seemed well under
control. He also notes we're right at 12 cities, which is (I think??)
the max number for this map size before corruption kicks in.
Our territory seems about right anyway, for now ;p No whipping should
be needed in our prime big citeis, but several harbors will see the
whip when they hit 39 shields remaining.

330 BC (1) - Our western scout hits what might be a large continent and
puts on his running shoes. In the east, we contact the Babylonians.
The Major desires his Warrior Code and Wheel, and we trade Writing
and 15 gold. This is followed with Horseback Riding and 80 Gold for
Literature. We remain "Map Making" ahead of him, which I refuse to
barter (with Lighthouse in progress.) The major scoffs the fool who
gives such awesome military knowledge for "liberal arts junk"!
(Yet some of his own advisors say he came out the fool on these deals!)

Hammurabi remains cautious. The Major wishes to make better 'friends',
and so immediately lands the settler on the ONE free land spot he can
see, thinking that his borders might be totally shut down before long.
If they are not, he is a bigger fool then we imagine and have nothing
to feature. This way we can (if we survive) build a harbor there and
start trade (cough, also a barracks and wall and INFANTRY!) The major's
advisors remind him, after the deal, that our law FORBIDS us from
riding horses. Oh bother, he says... He takes out his aggression by
downing a barbarian raider ship with his own.

310 BC (2) - Next up on research, Polytheism, as the Major thinks that
Monarchy will allow both economic and military victories. We build
Norwich next to Ur, and see a small island directly North. Over in
the West, we see it's NOT a large continent, but a medium thin island,
and see French borders (darn).

290 BC (3) - Between turns Joan d'Arc wishes to sell us Philosophy. I
tell her, while you're at it, why not sell us Mathematics too? The
sum is princely, 228 and 4/turn. (This is to placate the liberal art
majors he offended!) Our western galley, not to be bested, takes down
a pirate ship as well. Coventry whips its harbor. Nottingham and York
switch to settlers for the newly found islands.

270 BC (4) - India, out of nowhere, greets us between turns to trade
territory maps. Instead we try to offer Code of Laws for Contact with
Chinese and his map, but he declines. TWO pirate ships attack our
Western galley! We defend, going down to 1 hp, but survive and become
veteran! The Indians, French and Babs start the Great Library, and India
also starts the Oracle in Dehli. (Note if I had been planning GL I wouldn't
have traded Literature to babs, but I wasn't)

250 BC (5) - Hmmm, a tiny island above the French Island, but with wheat.
Very small... might make a nice military base.

230 BC (6) - 190 BC (8) ... zzzz....

170 BC (9) - The pirate ships come yet again, and our western galley is
now elite. (a pre man-o-war)

150 BC (10) - Well, well... we DO complete the Great Lighthouse. London
goes on to Great Library, but consider this a placeholder for now.
Shift to library or granary if you like. Joan's ambassador visits the
lighthouse and establishes an embassy. Just before he leaves office,
Major Charis barters Code of Laws to India for Territory map and an
introduction to the Chinese (not introducing the babs to him.)

Interesting! Wrong again - is ISN'T a thin island, that's just the
tip of a large continent with India in the south and France in the
middle. There's still land up North, but it's going fast! (Settlers
seen moving up there) We MIGHT be able to get a military base/harbor
on that continent too if we move quickly. It's ivory central up there
and some cattle even. The Chinese are polite and on par, and the French
are advanced (Polytheism and Construction known). Hammurabi is merely
cautious, so we talk. I offer Code of Laws and he will give 100 Gold
and his World Map. We accept and hope to make friends with this
backwards and isolate people. Looking at the map, the spot I founded
WAS the last square that could be settled peacefully on their land.
(He might be more polite if/when we get our scout off his land!)

If speed getting over to the west is of the essence, consider changing
Newcastle from Harbor to Galley. (And remember, the sea is now safe for
us, and us alone!!) There's a boat loaded with a settler in Hastings,
and a Swordsmen on the way down to join him. Rest boat one turn to
heal it to full strength.


Good luck in the new Nautical era! (Carbon Copy is up)
Charis
 
Good job, guys. It all worked out well, as the total lack of river commerce in our lands gives Colossus more value, and it lasts through the Industrial age. Call it the Sleepy Gambit. ;)

Jaffa is up next, though. Carbon is following Charis in RBD3, so when Jaffa joined this lineup and Carbon delayed his turn last time, I figured that was a good permanent arrangement.

Don't get too cozy with our rivals. If we could reach their lands without the Lighthouse, they can reach ours, even if they can't trade with one another. Trade should be high on the list of priorities, as we may as well sell incense to any with cash to buy.

The next round ought to be fun, now that we're done sitting idle in our desert lands, counting the dunes and the snow drifts, with no one else to plot wars against. :)

"Sea Currents" indeed. One has to have an eye for the way of the waters. :viking:


- Sirian
 
Duly noted. With all these extracontinental cities in our possession, where's the FP going to go?

Maybe I'm placing you guys in such tense situations (founding Baltimore in the builder game, actually building the colossus instead of the lighthouse) on purpose, just to test your skills.

Or maybe I need to get to bed earlier?

Glad to hear it all worked out in the end. :goodjob:
 
I haven't seen the newest map, but are there any choke points through which ships MUST travel if they are to land safely in shorewaters? If so, and we can fortify a few spare galleys on there, we could effectively shut them all off from our lands until they can scrounge together Astronomy (similar in application to what we did to the Iroquois in RBD2). If we FORCE them to end their turns in sea or ocean, it might make them think twice about visiting the brown hills and parched deserts of Great Britain.
 
That town Charis founded on the Bab continent is DOA. It's not even got possesions of the nine central tiles, much less the full 21, which is the main factor in culture flipping, Firaxis has revealed (the other being foreign nationals, which I at least knew -- heh, from experience, arrgh). :)

I believe we'd have done better to found a city on the island to the north, or found it sooner at least. We can get a foothold on anybody's continent any time we please by plunking down a couple stacks of troops and informing the locals that "England has arrived". That's probably not necessary with Babs, although whether or not we want to aggressively attack them while they remain isolated and somewhat backward is a vital question to ponder. I tend to lean away from early aggression unless I'm penned in or its foisted upon me, but I can be too much attached to the Powell Doctrine of bringing decisive force to the battlefield, which is tough to do early without hopelessly whipping cities into the dirt. (I had to do just that in my prototype game, to overcome of all civs, the Greeks and their hoplites, IN THE MOUNTAINS, what a task that was!) I tend not to want to gambit the course of my future on how a single stack of archers or swords or horsies do against a stack of fortified spears. I have seen it fail enough times now. My very first ancient war, with Japan vs China on that huge map (reported on my site), had its serious problems. My archer force kept them hemmed in but it took 100 turns to win the war, as logistics really hurt, and time taken to back off and heal up wounded survivors bought the enemy enough time to build reinforcements. It was just a rough situation. I prevailed in some part due to loopholes in game balance that were patched out. I also did no whipping, which goes to show how a war tends to go in that era WITHOUT any whipping: it can be pretty dicey.


I'd say save the FP until further notice. If we take out the babs early or early-ish (and they WOULD be the easiest target, thus should be the first target), we may put the FP on their land and bring a second continent online. Otherwise, we may want it on the north of the French lands, or somewhere else yet. I've not seen a good location as yet, though Dover is another potential. Still too early to see.


- Sirian
 
0) 150BC Pull up the Foreign Ministry window to see what's available, and accidentally establish an embassy in Delhi (interface gripe -- all these little popup windows should have a default of 'no action'). Oh well. Delhi is 31 turns from Great Library.

Convert entertainer in Hastings to tax collector.

Indians pay 60 gold for RoP (more than the embassy cost, so we came out ahead anyway :) ). French pay 40 gold. Decide to go ahead and establish the other embassies -- Chinese are 42 turns from Great Library, Babylon is 15 turns away. China gives us world map and 14 gold for RoP, Babylon is broke.

China is on the same continent with France and India, on a small SE promontory.

Put London on settler. I figure we might as well go after the ivory (and should do it with all haste, if so), so switch Newcastle to galley. Also send settler from ship in Hastings on a pointless excursion to Newcastle and back before realising there's already a settler waiting in Newcastle. Ooops.

Massive science investment (-12 gold/turn) will give us polytheism in 4 turns. French already have it, hopefully we can broker it to India and China.

1) 130BC India and China sign peace treaty. They were at war? Ummm, well, okay :)

3) 90BC The 'island' behind Jaipur may be quite extensive. We finish research into polytheism (and avoid unrest in Hastings by manipulating citizens from the domestic advisor screen, after our turn is officially over. Phew!)

4) 70BC Polytheism sold to Indians for world map + 50 gold + 2 gold/turn, and to Chinese for 15 gold + 3 gold/turn. The Chinese have built a harbor! Ooooh! Aren't they clever :) Sell them incense for 2 gold/turn. Indians have built Hyderabad on most of the elephants :(

5) 50BC Okay, so the island behind Jaipur isn't that big, after all.

6) 30BC Ivory Coast founded to take elephants from Hyderabad (we have the cow, so we should be able to outgrow them). Our elite galley finds new and apparently untouched land west of the Jaipur island :)

7) 10BC Leeds founded on island north of Babylon. Dover goes into unrest at size 3 -- convert excess citizen into a worker to help with improvements on that island.

8) 10AD French finish Great Library, start on Great Wall. Too bad for everybody else working on GL, I don't think they've got Construction yet :D

10) 50AD Lots of new land west of Jaipur / east of Babylon. No sign of the missing Civ yet. We have one galley with settler on the way, others will be ready to set out soon.

French have construction, but that seems to be the extent of their tech lead.
 
...and all the turns of the succession games end up on me, except in my own. :p

RBD3 & LK8 are already queued up in front of this one, if I manage to squeeze this in tomorrow (I won't be able to start playing my first game until after 10:00 pm), then bonus, if not, I am going to beg to switch or skip my turn. If whoever is behind me (Sirian? The guy up in my Emperor game, figures.) can fit a turn in tomorrow, go for it. If I am able to play the game and nobody posts a turn yet, I'll reconfirm having it and post at an ungodly early hour.
 
Carbon: this one might be back around to you by the time you finish the other two games, and I'd like to keep it moving. So I went ahead with it.

The first thing I did on the inherited turn was trade Joan our world map for Construction and some gold. Why? When we were so close to the research ourselves? Because London had 79 shields stored up. This was the only chance to grab another Wonder, and I'm a Wonder-ful kind of guy, as everybody knows. :lol:

I believe my decision was born out when this Hunny of an event :king: happened a couple turns later:
 

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I snagged a couple of other goody huts as well, but we lost some island sites I thought we'd have a chance to grab, especially the one above Ivory Coast. (That one was out of reach before my turn started, the Chinese were almost there).

So when we got Monarchy, I flipped London from Great Wall (as useful as that might have been for defending our colonies) over to the Hanging Gardens. London is FAR behind on infrastructure, not even having a granary or library yet, much less aqueduct, but denying the AI's this cheap, useful wonder, along with potential grief saved on cascade, has to factor into its value. The Gardens offers a permanent 3 content faces in the city where it's built, acting as a second Cathedral for 300 shields, the temp continental benefit, the culture, and the stacking effect with other happiness items that can't be obtained any other way. It's a good buy at 300 shields.

With most of the islands near France now occupied, our ships and settler pairs had to wander pretty far, converging near the end of my turn at "Ireland" off the Babylonian coast. Two cities founded there, third settler in place and set to complete the Irish Triad, ensuring the entire island for our empire's use. This land is hopelessly far from civilization, but if/when we conquer the Babs and build Forbidden Palace over there, Ireland would come online as a useful colony. In any event, it's ours, for whatever that will be worth. The swordsman for Eire is over on the Chittagong island, having poked into a goody hut (got zippo), and looking around a bit, but he'll need a ride home soon.

Getting Monarchy (!) from a goody hut is quite a break. It gave us the Hanging Gardens, and I traded the tech to Joan a bit later for all her treasury (~500) and a French worker. She went into revolt and is now in Monarchy, which will aid her growth curve, but she simply had way too much cash and paid for the whole tech at 2nd-civ cost IN CASH. So I had to broker it, but nobody else could even come close to affording. Now if only we can keep Charis from spending the WHOLE reserve at the first chance ;) we'll be in good shape. :) On the up side, Joan is now so broke, she can't even afford a rite of passage. She must have been milking India and China for millenia on tech and other stuff.

Babs researched mapmaking on their own. I suggest keeping an eye on them, they will make contact within 20 turns max, likely sooner. The other civs have our world map now (as if they even needed it, they are all over the dang place) so keep an eye on when to sell someone contact with the Babs.

In addition to securing Ireland, picking up Monarchy and getting us on toward the Gardens, I did a LOT of heavy whipping in our coastal towns on the mainland, and beefed our military up a goodly bit, including getting ANY troops at all to the southwest island. I switched Charis's Gambit Town over to pumping warriors, because if they don't have a massive garrison they're going to flip. Might flip anyway, but it's worth a shot. DO NOT spend cash down there. Maybe whip a set of walls, though.

There are sea currents north of Leeds. I was too busy to investigate. Still no sight of Rome. Running out of places to look.

The final thing I did was outfit two settlers at the end to found two of the Red Dot locations. Seemed like a good time, and we're past "optimal number of cities" long since, so might as well.

I don't like our chances at Ivory Coast. I fear spending a lot of cash over there then losing it anyway. It's quite difficult to hold on to luxury colonies on another civ's mainland (check my report from Apolyton Tourney Two at my site, regarding cities on the Indian continent). In this case, I think we're just too far to support that location. I'd have grabbed the island instead, even though the ivory is desirable. What good does it do to found a city that is most likely to end up in enemy hands. (We'll see how it goes, our neighbors there are the Indians, who also have stuck their necks out to grab the ivory). The only way I could see ANY spending of cash on that city to be justified is if we have in place a garrison of about ten units, a third of them bombardment, and some walls, with a reasonable chance to hold out against a dozen archers or half a dozen knights.

Let Ireland build walls, then temples or workers. Don't rush anything over there after we're out of despotism. Those cities are hopelessly corrupt. Let em build it one shield at a time. Maybe rush a harbor in one location, but again, only if more troops have been sent and the island looks well enough secure.

I cancelled all our RoP's, as nobody was paying gpt. No one could afford a decent price, either, yet all stayed polite after cancelling. Next player has run of what to do there, give in for pennies or hold out for pounds.

Despotism looks better for us, for the moment, than Monarchy. I figure, finish the Gardens before a revolt, and try to go straight to Republic (which nobody has yet). We could conduct an ancient war against Babs, but it would take all our effort. Our military is strong, but widely scattered, and thin on a per-city basis. We frankly aren't anywhere close to having an invasion ready, so it may be better just to swap to Republic soonish and move on up the tech tree.

One more bit of bad news. Joan's Paris is size 12 already. With us still locked at size 6, and not so much as even started thinking about aqueducts. That's going to become a major problem for us unless we start working on it soon.


- Sirian
 
One of the best things we can do with the cash surplus is spend it on military upgrades. We now have plenty enough to hit shift-U with our spears and upgrade a whole mess at one time.
 
Got it, but don't think I'll get a chance to play today.

CC, if you want to take your turn now, go for it. If I don't hear from you by tomorrow, I'll go ahead and take my turn.
 
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