Sirian's Sand Box

Selling lux to the AI's will absolutely NOT slow them down! Remember, they run entertainers, not the lux slider. Selling them more lux gives them many happy faces with which they can put more population to work and gain much more than they are paying us! Witholding luxuries and resources from an AI is the only peaceful way to slow them down. It definitely slows them more than the lack of income from the sale would slow us.

We don't want to sell anything to Abe. Sell to the others to boost their economies to make sure they can compete with him!


Anyway, poor Iroquois. Alas for them. OK, on with the show. :lol:

- Sirian
 
Ok, no selling to Abe, glad he was poor when I offered. :D

Just had a thought... If Abe starts to steamroll over Joanie, do we want to declare on him to grab the few "over reach" cities he founded and to possibly distract him, or not?

I know the guidelines say we're discouraged from starting wars, but, I know for a fact we definitely don't want to be sitting alone on this continent with him if he swallows France either. :)

Thought I'd ask because, IMHO, if we did declare we'd be within our rights since Abe is clearly an "agressor state" and did found some cities way up around us very early on when he apparently knew there were resources there.

EDIT: I forgot to mention in my report about the settler I skimmed off and sent to the far East, over by New Madras on the coast. If the settler is used to found a city it would be three squares from the closest American city, yet have access to a plains wheat and a fish in the ocean. The city would also completely sever any attempt by the American's to use the neutral area over there to add troops to any of those cities.
 
Early : A few cities were about to riot so I rush a few Markets or Cath, or hire some temp clowns or taxmen.
Nice move on the settler Ozy this is a prime site : Ozytown founded. Americans are massively moving towards France out of the danger zone.
Concentrate on building Marketplace/banks and raxes.
Also I direct our workers to get our size 10 to 12 more productive by mining grassland and cows, no use them producing loads of food right now.
Joan wants ROP for ROP. We need to limit the Americans, they are sending massive forces to France. I also add horses to the deal.
Hopefully that will help her out. We learn Astronomy and go to Physics. Our economy is great I'd rather build War elephants in low producing border towns to then upgrade if/when needed to cavs.

Middle : Our Galley discovers the Koreans island ! Good move on building that one :thumbsup:
Lincoln phones and wants Spices ! We cave in :( . Physics discovered -> Magnetism due in 4.

Late : Start prod on a few settlers for site poaching in the South. The americans are making some headway into France,
they have razed 3 minor cities but we should strike the US soon I believe. Korean start Universal Suffrage in 1345.
Wang Ton calls up and wants to pay 24gpt for our spices, sure !
Remember to always put science down to 10% on the last turn of the 4s, our gpt then increases to 1100 for one turn, with no influence on the reasearch. Magnetism discovered, ToG due in 4. I have a cav in neutral territory by the war zone to inspect what is going on
The Koreans have rifles but I have not seen American rifles yet...We are still quite weak on Military but now most of our important infra is completed.

Most works in the North are finished so there are a lot of worker stacks on the move to the South / East to clear jungle and improve over there.
There are 2 settlers on the move to the South war zone, there is now some poaching to be done.
River bend, New Jaipur and lake Sirian can drop their taxmen next turn when their MP or Cath completes.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/SSB-1350_AD.zip
 
Got it. Busy tonight, so prolly be tomorrow before I get to it.
 
Don't forget the cannon/artillery. If we ge the chance we need to start building these in bulk since, as most know, they are the way to whittle down an invading army very quickly with less forces.

With the cash we're making each turn, we could systematically rush almost all infra needed and have cities pumping military to take Abe's mind off Joanie a little, assuming we decide to do that or not. :)
 
To make a long and boring story exceedingly short, I figure the group consensus seems to be a Short Victorious War :soldier: against Abe is the future, so I did our best to prepare for that. To that end, troops have been trained, and in particular there's a big cav stack in New Lahore for use on all those eastern cities.

I let the settlers that were going complete, and shoved them in Karachi. I didn't build actual cities with them, since we can't adequately defend them just yet. Speaking of adequate defense, the north is still practically undefended. I did what I could to counteract that, but it's still pretty ugly.

We have TOG, and are in the Industrial Age with Steam Power just completed. We have coal at Bombay and Bengal.

I also had the Eternal Infrastructure Christmas :santa: come back full force. Lots of new banks, universities, and such. We've got enough for at least one a turn, so I took advantage.

I only played 9 turns, as my 9th seemed a good stopping spot - Steam Power is in, there are workers available to use, and we've got our choice of research targets - I set it to Nationalism, but that's vetoable.

Oh, and Abe's got a random pike wandering around by New Jaipur. I've let him, though he's got a couple of boats wandering around that's kind of suspicious. And for a look at Abe's army:

ssb_abe_sod.jpg


Save the world from Abe
 
But still no rifles....
Its definitely time to (surgically) strike !
 
I also had the Eternal Infrastructure Christmas :santa: come back full force. Lots of new banks, universities, and such. We've got enough for at least one a turn, so I took advantage.

This policy will be discontinued on my round. I never called for an ETERNAL tax-and-spend program without regard to cost/benefit. I called for specific budget items to pay for specific improvements in the outer cities.

But still no rifles.... Its definitely time to (surgically) strike !

No, it's not. The plan is to be prepared for war, but to avoid war if possible. :)


- Sirian
 
Oh, by the way...

Forgot to mention that on my turn I found some assorted random worker stacks clearing jungle that wasn't part of any of our cities... Was slightly curious as to why we were doing so, since it seemed as if we needed said workers clearing the mess of jungle actually in cities. *shrug*


Just for Sirian:

EIC: Given our monster 500-700+ gpt economy after 4 turn researching, money's like water to us, to the point where we can practically give out sacks of gold to starving beggars. Given that the AI seems enormously stingy on offering tech, I shrugged and went for it.


Rather more importantly:

No, it's not. The plan is to be prepared for war, but to avoid war if possible.

Was under the impression that we were thinking about doing the Short Victorious War, despite the fact that starting wars is discouraged, under the clause that states we may do so to "discourage aggressor nations." Which Abe most certainly is, not to mention "rediculous land grabs" which if you consider our east coast, he has.

Me, I'm ambivilant towards the whole thing, but it seemed to be what the group wanted come my turn, so it's what I shot for. *shrug* I don't think we're ready for it yet anyway, but by the end of Sirian's round we ought to be.
 
Indeed we might not be ready for it yet but it would be very efficient to close off the isthmus leading to France. It would mean just capturing one city (the rest of the american cities in the North East will probably just flip to us) and the rest can be fought as a defensive war inside our border. It could insure the survival of France.
OTOH we could let the Americans rampage, destroy France and the game would turn into a titanic struggle between the two of us, could be fun as well :D

EDIT : Again server timing problems, the current time is Monday June 23rd 10:42GMT
 
EIC: Given our monster 500-700+ gpt economy after 4 turn researching, money's like water to us, to the point where we can practically give out sacks of gold to starving beggars. Given that the AI seems enormously stingy on offering tech, I shrugged and went for it.

Short-sighted. To dust off an old Sirian RBD cliche: "I urge you to think long term." I saved up over 32000g in GOTM14 and used it ALL in late-industrial and modern-era cash-burn research. Abiding by Epics rules, I still posted the fastest GOTM conquest that month.

Our research is cheap now because we're researching @last. If we continue that all the way to game's end, we're likely to lose.

Besides that, we've reached the point in the game where shields are the throwaway item and cash is precious. What are we going to DO with all these shields, do you think? Either train more military or run wealth.

There were some buys worth making. However, "we can practically give out sacks of gold to starving beggars" is pure foolishness, even with an economy this robust. Tech trades and tech steals are off the table, and so is wiping out the competition. So how do you think we're going to get to the finish line first? With your EIC tax-and-blow-it-all method? Handing out baskets of cash to fuel an entire industry of pork barrel? I doubt it. :)


Was under the impression that we were thinking about doing the Short Victorious War, despite the fact that starting wars is discouraged, under the clause that states we may do so to "discourage aggressor nations."

Think RBCiv Honorable Rules with the listed additions.

Don't worry. Abe will bring it on eventually.

I'll post my report later today.


- Sirian
 
Inherited Turn: I checked for investment into Nationalism. None yet. Dwip stopped a turn early, as soon as rails came in, and left me most of our workers unused. About half or so are tied up in projects, including a few doing mining on mountains before road. Those are lost to me all round, but it's only a few. I changed from Nationalism research to Industrialization and spent an hour poring over the map changing to factory prebuilds, in some cases having to slow down production. I see most of our colesseums never did get built, well at least now we get some use out of that as I used them as prebuilds in numerous locations. I started the backbone military railnet, rushed two ironclads out of corrupt harbor towns, then checked on our military upgrade status. Yikes. 2k to upgrade our pikes to musket! And we've been ignoring that to buy another bank or university each round?

Early: Trained additional workers out of some cities. Got most of a railnet in place. Turned one of our settlers around and headed him back out into the desert. Yeah, we can't protect such a city, but what are we really gambling here? A settler and one defender? Poaching is a high risk venture. Rewards only go to the quick and the bold. Why did I send out only one settler when we have four? Well, because it's too late now to grab other sites. There is only one left to go for.

Middle: Industry tech arrives. What do we want to build now? :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/ssb-facts.jpg

America makes peace with France. Joanie was playing massively stupid, from what our lone cav scout could see from a hilltop. She kept charging her cavs out into the open and then being attacked on defense. That happened every single turn and her force was losing 3 to 1 vs mostly weaker units. Blah. Sometimes the AI can be so single-minded in what it thinks is a good target, it throws its forces away.

Our clads arrive in the Korean vicinity and begin to scout their shores. They have multiple land masses.

Our military rail net completes. I start on production-oriented jobs and research Nationalism, saving up dough for unit upgrades.

Late: Our pikes are all upgraded to musket. Then our jumbos are all upgraded to cavalry. (In case the saltpeter is lost to a border expansion -- we can always build more jumbos to kick off a golden age). Nationalism comes in and I upgrade all our muskets to rifles. We R Broke(TM) but still bringing in surplus. I even did unit shuffle to clean up the ones in towns lacking barracks. A couple of factories complete and I start on power plants. We will need to build coal plants in ALL factory cities, to be replaced by hydro plants where possible and solar plants where not.

Looks like I'm cruising through the end of a solid, quiet round. Oops, maybe not.

ssb-war.jpg


Just up out of the blue, on my last IBT, the Americans launch a sneak attack at Pearl Harbor! Twelve of our worker units are captured by American forces and slaughtered. Four more are taken hostage and marched off to labor camps. I vow to recover them. Some American units marching across our land Deity RoP style near New Lahore rip up our roads and such. More than a dozen pikes are marched onto our land as well as a couple muskets and rifles. About eight cavs attack. The ones attacking our cities are all beaten back, but I had two rifles parked on the gold hills at Lake Sirian, awaiting fortifications to be built, and those were killed. All in all, a weakish attack by Abe. He went to war and didn't even make a serious attack on a city? The only gain he made was the two slaves from taking out our wandering settler, who was still wandering because Korea beat us to that last poaching spot.

Although this might turn out to be a mistake, I go ahead and sign Korea and France to military alliances vs America. Then I begin our counterattack.

ssb-capture.jpg


Orlando is taken easily. Oakland is not. Oakland required a dozen cavs despite having only three defenders: a musket, a pike and a conscript rifle. We lose two cavs and ten more are wounded. I decided to use many of our midieval infantry against the numerous invading pikes and we lost about four of those. We only have about half a dozen cannon, so that cuts our ability to soften up the targets. I decided to go ahead and purge as many of the invading units as I could. We lose a few more cav in this process to really nasty streaks vs pikes, but I managed to fend off almost all of the invaders. I left the ones on the mountains near New Madras alone.

I pulled out of Ozytown but did not abandon it. It looks like good bait for Abe's cavs to march into the jungle there and expose themselves to our attack. Well, that and the fact that I couldn't get defenders over there in one turn anyway.

I got our four captured workers back. They are being guarded, as is a stack of our MDI in the northeast. I also had enough cavs left to capture Kente, but that's about it.

I drafted across the nation: everywhere that could afford to contribute a pop point has done so. I left conscripts guarding the interior and moved vets to the front lines. With all our jumbos promoted, I could not kick off the golden age, but I did promote our one horseman to jumbo (new feature in PTW? Upgrades must come in stages now?) and so the GA should be startable next turn. Now's a good time to do it, with factories building, coal plants to be built, hospitals, colesseums and stock markets needing built, along with BatMed and WallStreet.

Keep the lagging cities on infrastructure. Use the built-up core for military. No idea how much military we will need, or whether our rep will go down the drain if Abe asks for peace before he makes peace with the other civs.

Unhurt cavs are stacked at New Lahore. Wounded cavs are stacked at Delhi. Our few cannon are in defensive locations. I parked a stack of MDI in Oakland for flip suppression. Albuquerque has Americans and is unhappy. You must not let it riot for a second turn.

I urge checking of new weariness each turn by fiddling with the tax sliders then putting them back where they belong. This will force weariness to show before you click Next Turn, to which you can respond. We do not want our government to collapse. No sign of weariness on the first turn, and since I did not raze enemy cities nor lose any of our cities, and since I cleaned out most of the invaders, I kept the weary factors low in my one round of combat. We have draft penalty for 20 turns in most cities, though. Run the lux slider up as far as need be, but stay in democracy if possible. The GA should help.

Anyway, should be an interesting round for Bam-Bam. I urge reviewing the variant rules before proceeding.


SSB - 1450AD


- Sirian
 
Lovely. Was hoping for a nice quiet builder round, since EVERY one of my SGs is in Serious Heavy War Mode (TM)

Very well, I shall dust off my scrolls of the varient rules, and make Abe pay for his atrocities.! :hammer: :hammer:
 
To flog the EIC horse a bit, as is my manner, I note that for one, I let our decently-producing 12-18 shield cities or so complete on their own, while rushing in more crappy 8 shield cities and such. Also netted a few libraries and a harbor or three. *shrug* Seemed as if we were going to want to persue a war presently, and to do the infrastructure now seemed to be a better plan than doing it later.

And I think when the time comes we'll have a world-class research machine anyway, or at least that was my impression from my turns. Maybe not. At any rate, the sand box'll have nice golden colored banks, yes? ;)

Did largely forget about the unit upgrading, though.

Think RBCiv Honorable Rules with the listed additions.

Don't worry. Abe will bring it on eventually.

You were saying there about Abe, Sirian? ;)

This may or may not be exceedingly dense of me, but I can't remember anything being said about honorable rules. The variant stuff, yes, but that says nothing about the honorable rules. Or the exploits, for that matter, but I figured that was a given. Honorableness was not, however.

Sort of moot in regards to the Short Victorious War now anyway, as it happens. Go get 'em, Bam-Bam!

:sniper: :slay: :rocket: :soldier:

(die, evil border cities, die?)

[edit]

How's our exceedingly underdefended north these days, btw?

[/edit]

[edit wars part II: Attack of the Edits]

Oh, and shouldn't that link to the Enormous JPEG O' Factories be an actual URL and not a quote?

[/edit]
 
Why yes. Yes it should. I quoted a jpeg? Fascinating. In my defense, the Quote button is practically right next to the image button. They are only separated by nearly the entire length of the big button bar. :crazyeye:

Let's try that again:

ssb-facts.jpg


Aha! There we go.

This may or may not be exceedingly dense of me, but I can't remember anything being said about honorable rules.

Nothing was. But compare the effects of the variant rules for this game with the effects of the Honorable tactics list. Those circles have more area of overlap than they do of exclusion. The idea that we would start salivating over a pretense to take some of Abe's holdings by force indicated to me that some folks, at least, had lost sight of the underlying theme. Or, perhaps, had not grasped it to begin with?

One of my greatest disappointments in the Honorable Tactics list is the fact that it still has some loopholes. The list is already too long, so I don't want to add fixes just to close those. I chose the rules here with care. Whether they will shape the game exactly as I envisioned remains to be seen, but some of your remarks and moves have given me the impression that you are not taking the "avoid war" rule seriously, in spirit. That is not a rule to be skirted around and lawyered over.

Hopefully Bam-Bam won't have as heavy of a war action as he thinks. America has three enemies now, after all, and surely some of those Korean poach sites look more juicy than our heavily fortified cities. If the AI's want to spend a lot of time warring and end up frozen in Communism for a while, that will aid our cause, but chances are we'll be back at peace again soon. Of course, we'll probably see more wars down the line, but if Abe never makes any headway, and each war sees him also at war with the other AI's, the wars should end fairly quickly.

The hardest part of the game might just be restraining our trigger finger in the modern age after some ijdit AI Chooses Unwisely. :lol:

As for the north... it no longer matters. The entire nation is connected by rails and defenses and counterpunch can be shipped in to the back lines if needed. Bam-Bam inherits a game where most of the interior cities are now guarded by a single conscript rifle while the vets are all at the front. The only undefended city is Ozytown, because it was too exposed and I never got around to extended the rail over there.


- Sirian
 
Why yes. Yes it should. I quoted a jpeg? Fascinating. In my defense, the Quote button is practically right next to the image button. They are only separated by nearly the entire length of the big button bar.

You remember when you said I wasn't appreciating your humor?

Can't. Stop. Laughing... :lol:


Got Factory? (tm)

(Abe, it's what's for dinner?)

Honorableness - Check.

but some of your remarks and moves have given me the impression that you are not taking the "avoid war" rule seriously, in spirit.

Perhaps, yes. There's been something of a difference in what I've been doing and saying and what I actually think, however. I've done what I've done and said what I've said because it was my impression that group feeling was leaning toward a war to snatch the eastern cities from Abe and billing it on the "wars against agressors" rule. That, of course, is pretty well moot now. I may have been impressed wrongly, too. *shrug*

My own feelings on this are that we'll gain comparatively little. In the strategic sense, we'll have removed that American thumb to the east, and will likely drain a bunch of units. Do we really need more cities? Prolly not, sand box or no. Ah well.

North - Check.
 
All--turns will be complete and report posted around 9-10 eastern tonight. RL did not allow much civving, and my ISP was not obeying my commands to work.

I am 3 turns in. Abe definately chose unwisely. Thanks for the jumbo, Sirian--we are in a golden age! Most of my time so far has been to optimize production in the core for military during the Golden age. I expect the rest of the turns to move more quickly. Three American cities have already fallen. I expect all of Abe's agressive settlements to be ours in another turn.

Let's just say that the biggest challenge of this war will be to manage war weariness. I expect to punish Abe quickly, and then move most cities back to infrastructure. As it is, the core is mostly on military, unless building the power plants helps to increase cav/rifle production (getting to 80 or 40 spt thresholds). Depending on how the war is going, I will probably cycle the core through power plant builds to get them done during the GA--this will be key for Ozy if I do not get this done. I will clearly indicate which cities still need plants so that we can take advantage of GA production.

More :hammer: tonight!
 
Just wanted to clarify that I only wanted to declare war on America if they started to seriously conqueror France. Even then my goal would have been to take the "over-reach" cities and mainly be a distraction until America and France made peace because I *didn't* want us to be alone with America.

I did promote a military build-up, but mainly as a preventative measure, i.e. cannons and artillery. My apologies if it seemed I wanted a war, I really didn't, but thought that in a worst case scenario war would be better than the alternative of us alone with America and them with all those military units wandering around.

Oh, and part of the blame for the lack of colloseum's was I started to build them, and built a few on my last turn, then thought we needed defense more. I also thought that since our cities were stable at size 12 and there were quite a few tech's (about 8) until we reached sanitation, someone would have built them before we had hospitals. I guess not, so sorry for that as well. :)
 
Inherited Turn 1450 AD

Very interesting. I think I understand most of what Sirian had in mind. Nothing much to change, just a 1x of where all the troops are located based on Sirian's report.

Early

Factories complete in many cities--those that can push over 40spt go to cavs for now, rest to coal plants. Check that--wake up the jumbo after taking Minneapolis with one lost cav--there is an annoying longbow out in the open. Jumbo attacks, and we get this message:
SSB-golden.jpg


Readjust cities for GA production. Bombay gets a coal plant--this will get it over 80spt. Two tiles of plains mined around Delhi--this will allow the coal plant to get it to 80 spt in GA. Readjust sliders--running 20% lux, and we can still get next tech (Medicine came in--since we are at war--I am heading straight for RepParts, so electricity is it) in 4 @ a positive 408gpt. Yep, Abe, bad timing on the attack, what with Sirian completing the rifle upgrade and all, and us being ready for a GA. Abe starts sending units at Joan instead of at us, maybe he is smart after all. That alone makes the alliance worth it for now. By the time he gets back, we will be too strong. Pittsburgh is captured with MedInf (with cannon support). War weariness pumps up double on 2nd turn. Portland captured with no losses. Many cities need lots of clowns to stay happy--40% lux needed to keep core happy and productive. Attack on Richmond generates a leader, one lost cav, and three captured catapults. Leader goes for an army. Las Vegas is captured with no losses.


Middle :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

Coal plants complete in Delhi and Bombay--both can make a cav or rifle a turn. Other coal plants complete either as rotating infrastructure builds or as needed to get to 40 spt. LA is a tough nut-six cavs needed--three pikes kill three cavs before they fall to three more cavs. This ups WW a little bit. We learn Electricity, but I refuse to research repparts first. We are not planning to eliminate Abe, and he is severely gassed. Last two IBTs only saw him impale one cav each time. Chose the Corporation, which can be researched in 4 turns at positive cashflow. RepParts is not worth more of a deficit with the lux tax needing to be at 40%. Lose 4 cav taking San Diego. Lose a cav taking Baltimore. Lose 2 cav taking Denver, and capture a cat. Lose 2 cav taking Phoenix. We get the Heroic Epic and Military Academy messages after our Army wins a combat, and lose 3 cav and a rifle in the first counter after taking three cities in one turn. I see no need to take more of Abe's cities. This is enough punishment. Switch over to infrastructure for all cav producing cities--rifle producers will make one more before a switch.

Abe dials us up for peace in 1480 IBT. He will give all his little cash, and ~30gpt, but straight up peace is ok. Taking 10 of his cities is punishment enough. I do not like breaking alliances, but our variant rules are clear--take peace when offered. Done--all the citizens rejoice at peace. Resistance ends in all captured cities. Back to railroading and infrastructure push.

Late

Rush temples and cathedrals (after 1 build turn) in captured cities to help protect against flips. Learn the Corporation, start Sanitation. Complete the Heroic Epic in Delhi and the Military Academy in Bombay. Stock exchanges or banks ordered all around where factories and coal plants are complete. Seoul completes Universal Suffrage. America and Korea sign peace. The railing projects are moving right along--teams of four rail very nicely. Korea has RepParts, and France has Refining. Both were more expensive than Sanitiation, which gives us hospitals to build. I suggest RepParts next, to give us fast workers to redo tiles for max growth in hospital cities. Also will give us LOTS of infantry upgrades.

Have fun, Ozy--we are officially back in builder mode.

The Game

Here is a view of what Abe gave up by his sneak attack:

SSB-abesfolly.jpg
 
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