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Size Matter - Tips and Tricks

Discussion in 'Strategy and tips' started by Hydromancerx, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    So Thunderbrd has made some amazing combat settings. This bring a whole new way to play. I wondered if anyone had tips or tricks when using the Size Matters setting in your game.
     
  2. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    This can make heroes and other solo units extremely strong. There is a promotionline (Bottleneck) where you get an advantage per group size difference. While there is the opposite promotionline as well (Swarm), units with an average group size rarely specialize against solo units, and I think you need a minimum group size for Swarm.

    There are also promotionlines for large units (Bully IIRC) and for small units (Sting) - if you use these promotionlines properly the results are incredible.

    One hero unit that isn't that worthwile without this setting is the Great Hunter. I have seen the recommendation to settle Great Hunters, because they can rarely bring in as much :food: as the settled Great Hunter, but with this setting this changes. You don't want to miss out on this unit with a few Bottleneck promos. Not only can they kill beasts, they can rule the battlefield in Prehistory if the enemy doesn't either respond in kind or build a few units with Swarm (which weakens these units against anything else). And if they subdue a Giant Sloth (I think that was the name), you can get Mapinguari units in mid Prehistory which are on par with Early Ancient units - at least in defense. Edit: If they take a couple of Bully promotions.

    The Great Hunter gets even more important if you play with Hide and Seek as well, because some units (Big Cats, especially Sabretooths) get so powerful that they destroy anything else until you get Hunting Tactics - the (regular) Hunter is usually the first unit that can take these beasts down. You can say that Hunting Tactics is the moment humans become the predominant lifeform on the planet.

    If you play with S&D splitting units and taking Bottleneck promos becomes an interesting choice as well, but you need to be careful - small unit sizes are a bit underpowered IMO.

    Another point where splitting units can become interesting is in the beginning, to get 3 weak (or perhaps 9 really weak) units out of your first unit. That way you can explore really fast in the beginning.

    2nd Edit: In peacetime you can also use splitted units to occupy a large area to deny other civs entrance.
     
    Hydromancerx likes this.
  3. Shoobs

    Shoobs Prince

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    Is it worthwhile to build up some of the units to make their unit size increase ( like say stone throwers? ). I have seen the AI utilize size matters when I have gone to war with them. It was intriguing to see slingers with 4.5 strength.
     
  4. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    When you have reached a certain level of promotions, you can take a "quality up" promotion. These are perhaps the most powerful promotions in the mod, but they come at a price: Even if you play with "Unlimited XP", this option doesn't work for these promotion. This is working as intended because these promotions are so strong: The base strength of the unit goes up 50%.

    OTOH this makes promotions to enhance experience much more worthwile. Some hero units can get two of them, which means these units can usually get several quality-up promotions in their lifetime.
     
  5. Shoobs

    Shoobs Prince

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    These were "relatively new" units being made by the city, I'd see normal 3.0s then suddenly a 4.5
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Great responses tmv! Your point about the bully promo on the mapinguari is a new thought for me :D
     
  7. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Yes very informative! Please post more!
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    If you are facing an army at the gate that your units cannot hope to do much against, you can still split the units that are not injured, to the limit of their ability to split, so as to scatter the efforts of the strong invaders so as to delay their ability to enter by having fodder kills they have to plow through.

    However, an awesome counter to this strategy in the early stage of the game is Rhinos. The Rhino ability to attack repeatedly until it dies can help it tear through tons of small and strength-insignificant defenders, completely turning the split-to-delay strategy into an absolute backfire.
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    You can have a hard time trying to effectively staff every city with strong enough defenders to have a chance against a well prepared, heavily merged invasion force. So it can help to build up some stacks of heavily merged, battle-ready city defender types that are prepared to move to where an attack appears to be likely to take place, capable of reacting to the movements of the invading army.
     
  10. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Can the rhino tactic work for subdued rhinos too? Or only war rhinos?
     
  11. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    The Imperial Guards are a bit less important than without this option, because the other units can merge while this unit cannot (due to unit limit = 1). This can actually make Monarchy as a civic a bit weaker.

    The same problem would be true for the Warlord units (and I think they are actually prohibited from merging), but these units have such a small unit size (Party), that Bottleneck promos can make them much more powerful, and this way merged units don't work so well as a counter to them.

    Getting access to Obsidian and / or Copper is a bit less important because of merging. But merging is limited by era (splitting too IIRC, but that's usually less important, mostly because you don't have giant unit sizes in the beginning). If you have access to Obsidian/Metals/anything to get better units you should remember to merge some of them as well, otherwise an enemy without these boni might overcome the disadvantage.

    I think merged units are not only effectively stronger than the split units, they are cheaper with respect to maintenance and upgrade costs.
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It's the Stampede ability. Generally only the war rhinos get it but you can find some ways to give it to other animals, even elephant riders, through promos too. It's just a real double edged sword kind of thing since it makes the unit a sacrficial one unless they can clear the whole tile without dying.

    Onslaught, on tanks and such, later in the game, if it's been applied yet as intended (not sure how much) can also have a similar impact.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    They should probably be made to start with a step stronger quality or something to compensate, like the bandit units do.
     
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    All true, but man when you lose them you've put a lot of production eggs into one basket and it's a lot more painful right? Heavy merged units take forever to heal too.
     
  15. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    Right. So you put a few more eggs into that basket and add healers of any type the unit needs. Then you get really crazy and add a Leader for the unit (Warlord or Hero), plus a general as Field Leader.

    At this point you've got a "queen", in chess terms. And you should treat that unit like one. With the right promos the main unit and the Field Leader can get away into mountains if things get really bad, and even if you lose the healers it's not that bad, compared to losing the main unit. Experience, Swarm and Quality-up promos are a must, of course. And spotter units as well.

    Just think about what a carrier group in a modern navy looks like.

    Sometimes the only mistake you can make is to not put enough eggs into that basket.
     
  16. Enchanteur

    Enchanteur Warlord

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    Hi, I don't understand all feature here and how it work (but I remember to saw another thread about that so I will read it if I find it again).
    So, I tried ingame the feature and splited some units.
    After spliting a strong guy (5 strengh), I was amazed to get 3 units around 3.5 strengh (I dont remember exact number but it was 3.3 to 3.6 aproximative).
    First, the guy I splitted got before a promotion giving +1 strengh, so I suppose it's why these littles guys are so strong too. It's clear it's worth it.
    But here come my question : as I get now 3 units, how is upkeep ? Before, I paid upkeep for 1 units. But now, I have to pay gold upkeep of 3 units instead ?
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    You are paying for 3 units but at a reduced rate. However, it is still a bit cheaper overall to maintain the one merged unit.
     
  18. Legionary119

    Legionary119 Chieftain

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    I'm guessing some units just can't be merged? Because I went and hunted a lot of big cats so I can use the War Cats unit line and so far I haven't been able to get my Trained Cats to merge
     
  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It's in their combat class descriptions in the pedia. No... they cannot merge or split, like any other strike team type unit, which they are related to enough that it would make no sense to allow them to merge or split for all the same reasons (mostly game balance but also for th realism in that if they get to be too big a group, their invisibility abilities and stealth combat would be impaired and there are limits to how easily those things can be modified. So we assume that they just act with the most optimal group size for a stealth unit.)
     
  20. Legionary119

    Legionary119 Chieftain

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    Oh! I completely forgot about strike units and that the trained cats were one despite the game telling me about how they are sneaking up on things
     

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