Skaven Design and Ideas.

[Ahriman]

Hi Sid, thanks for the suggestions. Check out this thread for the most current Skaven design:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290972

Why not give the Skaven something like the Planar gate in FFH2 to start

Something like this is too powerful in the very early game. Skaven WILL get an Underways Access building that functions like a planar gate/airport and lets you instantly shift units around your empire using the airlift functionality, but that will require a fairly late-game tech (probably engineering).

2.) Instead of making them a sprawling team like the Kuriotates in FFH, why not instead simply decrease the city upkeep cost of an early and massive empire expansion.

Because this would have the opposite effect. We want Skaven to have a few massive super-city powerhouses. Hence they get lots of unique buildings (and clan hqs) to support these metropolises, and a civic to help make these cities truly huge.
Whereas lower city upkeep would have exactly the opposite effect; it would encourage large numbers of small cities everywhere, which isn't really how skaven work.

Maybe an option similar to FFH with the ship options, i.e. skeleton crew, privateer etc. This option would be different you could have, A.) Regular unit, B.) Underground/Invisible, and C.) ... I'll think on C...

I'm a bit skeptical about this because its hard to make the AI know how to use such things - they can't use the ship options.
What do you imagine would be the different effects between Regular vs Underground?

I was also wondering if the Skaven or 'some' other team/units could split like the Tar demon does/did in FFH when defeated.

Thats a good idea. We could consider this as an alternative to immortality for the rat swarm (and up the strength a little).

How about allowing skaven casters to cast a super special spell when they are on a warpstone resource. Make it a one time only cast.

The AI isn't going to understand any effect like this - it won't know that it needs to move its caster units to the warpstone tile, and its better to stay away from any features that only the human player can use.
This mod is easy enough as it is

there is very little that the civ engine cant do.

But there's an awful lot the civ AI can't understand

*hidden assasins still need to be designed. Any ideas to how to make this work are welcome. One idea is a 50% chance of removing the hero promotion from an opposing unit, but this would be odd with individual hero units. else maybe remove a random 'command group' promotion. also add a single first strike in combat, but is lost on first combat. (assasins don't last very long on the battlefield)

I liked the idea (it might have been yours?) of making Hidden Assassin a promotion available to melee and recon units for skaven, dark elf, and tilea that gave +40% strength bonus vs hero units.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

But there's an awful lot the civ AI can't understand

indeed

 

[Sid_Unbreakable]

Because this would have the opposite effect. We want Skaven to have a few massive super-city powerhouses. Hence they get lots of unique buildings (and clan hqs) to support these metropolises, and a civic to help make these cities truly huge.
Whereas lower city upkeep would have exactly the opposite effect; it would encourage large numbers of small cities everywhere, which isn't really how skaven work.

Honestly I suspected my other ideas except for the Tar Demon one were crap, but sometimes these things lead to someone else's great idea. Anywho, my thought here was that I hate the limitation of cities idea, and I was thinking of alternatives to it. The Skaven are a potentially really fun team.

OH yeah, I was also thinking of something like the Fear promotion from FFH. This would not necessarily be for the Skaven. My idea here would be based off of the morale from Warhammer, I remember that Goblins and some other critters were very much susceptible to bad morale and fleeing the battle. If Skaven are also like this you could implement the opposite promotion from FFH. i.e. Not being able to attack a Dragon because your unit is afraid, but instead make the SKaven unit unable to attack because IT is afraid. This could be balanced by a hero, spell, or combat experience, you could even make it to where the unit was only afraid to attack in small numbers. i.e. 2-3 Skaven to one enemy unit would make them 'brave.'

I'm a bit skeptical about this because its hard to make the AI know how to use such things - they can't use the ship options.
What do you imagine would be the different effects between Regular vs Underground?

Honestly I just think that the idea of that is really cool and that it could be used in many other ways as well. I almost had something there but I was hoping to spark enthusiasm/mor thought in others to actually get something from it. I honestly didn't take the AI into account with the idea though tbh. With the regular vs. underground I was thinking of something like the Zerg from Starcraft when they are burrowed they can set up some awesome traps, so maybe make it to where when a unit is outside a city they can have this ability, and make them hidden but can only move one space, but can still attack. (Ambush potentiality). THen maybe make the third option where they are hidden but have increased movement, but cannot attack.

What do ya'all think?

Also a question: How are you folks handling the 'underground' dynamic? I've searched around the forum but I can't seem to find the answer. How are the subterranean teams going to feel/play differently as opposed to the top-dwellers?

 

[Arexack_heretic]

One idea was to create a new type of road, the 'tunnel'. Units with subterranean trait would be invisible on them. able to travel quicker or even into enemy territory.
problem: roads are a bitc# to create and code, how to make the improvement invisible to non-ST civs.
So this idea was abandoned.

Some ideas are around to implement 'airlift' abilities from special 'tunnel' buildings, to transport units from city A to city B. (I'm personally not really fond of this concept though)


I like the idea of tunnelers being able to travel invisibly, but I think attacking should be best delayed to prevent it being over-powered.

ie subterranean trait allows: units to cast 'tunnel' : unit gains 'underground' p.
'underground' promotion: unit invisible, cannot cross swamps/wertlands(maybe rivers?), vision range 0, allows: 'surface' spell.
surfacing: remove underground promotion, end unit turn.

 

[Ahriman]

I hate the limitation of cities idea, and I was thinking of alternatives to it

Well, its just for one faction... and unlike Kuriotates (who I agree are basically crap) we're planning to create enough unique Skaven content to make those cities true powerhouses that can power an empire by themself; more buildings that give milprod and hammer bonuses, a unique civic that reduces the food consumption (so cities can be truly huge) and a building like the Clan's Warrens that doubles the production output of core units.
So, even just a couple of skaven cities will be able to pour out many many clanrat type units.

OH yeah, I was also thinking of something like the Fear promotion from FFH.

We have something like the fear effect from FFH, in the Fear and Terror promotions. We're still definitely tweaking how they will work.
The problem with the "failing to attack out of fear" mechanic is that it can just end up being very very frustrating, and not fun for the player; its really annoynig when I have a huge stack of knights next to a dragon, and could easily kill the damn thing, but not a single one of my knights will actually attack the damn thing.

I think the skaven cowardice/running away is better modeled using the withdraw chance mechanic; in my design the skaven racial promotion will give +10% withdraw chance, so any skaven unit can potentially survive combat through cowardice.

I honestly didn't take the AI into account with the idea though tbh.

Sadly, this has almost become my chief design role: trying to limit new features to those that the AI can understand. Its already pretty easy to beat the AI in this mod even on very high difficulty levels, because the AI tends to make poor civics choices, is ineffective using siege engine bombardment and magic, and doesn't build enough workers to build improvements in its territory fast enough.
Every other mechanic that we add that the human player can use that the AI can't use just makes the game even easier and less fun.
I suspect that if/when we start looking at trying to make naval combat interesting, we'll probably need to remove the buccaneers/skeleton crew etc; mechanics; otherwise basically the human player gets inherently better units because it can use those promotions whereas the AI can't.

How are the subterranean teams going to feel/play differently as opposed to the top-dwellers?

Probably they're really not; the civ engine just isn't designed to be able to handle above and below-ground tiers; so subterranean races basically end up becoming like surface races. However! There are enough other features of skaven and dwarves that make them fun and interesting to play.

Some ideas are around to implement 'airlift' abilities from special 'tunnel' buildings, to transport units from city A to city B. (I'm personally not really fond of this concept though)

I'm not particularly fond of airlift mechanics either, but they're the best we have available.
Another possible option would be to have a short-medium range paradrop ability on some burrowing units; if they start in a city they can teleport 4-6 squares away by using underground tunnels.

ie subterranean trait allows: units to cast 'tunnel' : unit gains 'underground' p.
'underground' promotion: unit invisible, cannot cross swamps/wertlands(maybe rivers?), vision range 0, allows: 'surface' spell.
surfacing: remove underground promotion, end unit turn.

Its an interesting idea, but unless you know a lot about AI coding I suspect we'd have trouble getting the AI to even be able to use it intelligently, and to keep it balanced. Having units that can approach your cities without being attacked can be incredibly overpowered, particularly against cavalry-type factions, who defend their territory by using high-move/withdraw chance cavalry to whittle down invading stacks slowly. If you can't attack the stacks marching through your territory then you're pretty screwed.