Skaven Design and Ideas.

[Psychic_Llamas]

i think only skaven would ever make warp tokens. well probably make the skaven AI want to hoard Warpstone anyway.

perhaps if we get UHVs like in rhyes we could make a skaven victory condition to control all sources of warpstone in the world. or at least n sources where n is a number.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Hmm...that sounds interestin, the victory thing. Yes. Hm...I'm not sure if I like or dislike it. I'll say I'm neutral on it. Mainly cuz I never really cared bout Skaven.

 

[deadliver]

i like the idea of having a warpstone refining tech that anyone can research, but make it not part of the normal tree, like a dead end detour, (or for skaven make it part of an important branch of techs)

and i dont think ANY civ would use warpstone, certainly not woodelves, and i highly doubt lizardmen would see any use in it.

as for RPG information being 'useless', its an important source of material, especially for that material that the tabletop game does not cover, such as Cathay, Araby and other minor civs. however, for the major civs id rather stick to normal warhammer stuff, over RPG stuff

Thats true, lizzies have no use for it BUT they do have those really cool gold tablets everyone would like to get their hands/claws/hooves on. I like the idea of a Warpstone Domination victory...heh would get me off my furry but and out into the brave new, err and old world to find it.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

they do have those really cool gold tablets everyone would like to get their hands/claws/hooves on

what does that have to do with warpstone i wonder? (and theyre stone tablets iirc)

 

[Masada]

There tablets of the Old Ones... most of them are probably on irrelevant rubbish but the Slann use everything to divine the Old Ones great purpose... i can see them directing skinks to examine Old One dropping to try and figure out what plants should be propigated in increasing numbers and what animals should be encouraged...

And they come in all sorts, Obsidian, Gold, Silver, Copper, Jade, Stone etc.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

coprolites.
get your own thread on that.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Let's start a thread on the Lizzies and include coprolites or put them in an existin Lizzie thread. (Is there even a Lizzie thread? I'll check.)

 

[frenzyslave]

I had an idea about how the Skaven could incorporate their rank bonus to combat resolutions - they are wussy by themselves but in a stack they are rabid, bolstered by their numbers. A lone Skaven unit has the "I can get picked off at any time / cowardly" promotion, which gives like - 20% strength. Whereas if there are at least 4 Skaven units in the stack, they get the "bravery in numbers / rabid" promotion, which gives +20% to their strength. So alone Skaven can be picked off by the enemy, as they should. But a rabid hungry pack will be more of a problem, as they become quite courageous .

 

[rocklikeafool]

Strength in numbers. Applies to Skaven and Greenskins imho. Maybe Chaos too. (Dependin on how ya look at Chaos.) That could be a promotion for both Greenies and Skaven.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

thats a great idea for skaven, i wonder how difficult it would be to implement...

 

[frenzyslave]

Ah, but the skaven are the masters of strength by numbers. With their fertility and maturity rate (not to mention their short nonnatural lifespans) and vicious upbringings (just hope you are born black, white, or grey)... That and you get alot of them together, they go from weak easybeats to rabid cheeseaddicts.

If you want to see how, roll in a bottle of whiskey into a AA meeting, say... Now imagine if a dwarf held that whiskey, and all the rats in the room wanted it. Watch them crawl over each other to get it, swarming over their own to even get it. The dwarf will be torn to shreds in seconds.

That and their leaders consider them expendable. "Better them than me" philosophy, and the good old famous line from Braveheart, "but we will get some of theirs as well..." Ah the joys of watching your apponent when you fire the warpfire thrower THROUGH your unit to cook their unit... (pray to the Council of Thirteen that luck is on your side and you fry more of them than yours...)

 

[Arexack_heretic]

Might not be too difficult to implement, however last time 'strength in numbers' was suggested, fear of 'doom stacks' lead to it being violently being outvoted.

the bonus need be from units of any (rank and file)type.

alternative idea:
how about joining rank-and-file units to simulate this bonus?
ie you have 2 units of spearskaven, sacrifice one to get a 'file' promotion on the second, or maybe sacrifice both to create a double strength (numbers) unit.
Possibly requiring a standard or champion in one unit.

this would require several double, triple sized unit duplications, but that is not much trouble once the mechanism is decided on.
Problem I can see with this idea is the resulting unit losing EXP.
This can be mittigated by having requirements and free promotions in the resulting combined unit.
(req0 : 2 units of same type, req1: champion, req2: musician.)

...
or just sacrifice fresh recruits to add a rank-n-file promotion, adding extra survivability flanking power. the promotion is lost when the unit is forced to flee from combat.
negating damage from first strikes are an option too (sacrificing the promotion)

 

[Ahriman]

Eh. I'd rather just give them weaker units, and food and military production bonuses, and maybe bonus to war weariness (they don't care so much about hordes of rats dying).

Remember also that this is at the regiment level; skaven regiments just represent a whole lot more individual models relative to human or elven regiments.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

However ,

when you fight with significantly weaker units, battles tend to flow like this:
"weaker unit dies, weaker unit dies, weaker unit dies, weaker unit dies."
chance of winning is not equivalent to the total strength in numbers but as individual units.
Also, by saying this should be handled at regiment level, you are not suggesting skavenunits to be weaker, but stronger in general. Skaven may not have the strength of dwarves, but there are 5x more of them in a typical unit.


Did firststrikes get reset every time a unit fought or are they expended after one combat and recharged at next turn?
If the first: weak units are screwed, if the latter: we may be able to salvage this with powerfull first strike boni (as a translation of chargebonus and flanking).

rankboni.
How about skaven-rank&file troops sacrificing to give another unit rank&file bonus?
this bonus then gives a good strength increase/freestrikes to the unit, but is lost if the unit is damaged more than 50% or panicked.

this joining units mechanism can be repeated for skaven support troops (flamers/globadiers/assasins/cencerbearers/etc)
Although the proposed hero-joining mechanism might be more appropriate for these.

 

[Ahriman]

I take your point about the stronger-unit-take-all nature of civ4 combat, and completely agree with it. Weaker units must be carefully designed; a small reduction in strength makes a big difference in value.

Check this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290972
for Skaven design. Any specific unit suggestions are very welcome, but please make them in that thread.

First strikes are reset every time a unit fights, though it is possible to duplicate the latter method using promotions. But first strikes aren't particularly Skaveny; I like the Warrens mechanic better where they simply get more units.

 

[orlanth]

I agree First Strikes aren't particularly Skaveny, they fit well with Archer-type units that actually do "strike first" (you can even watch this in the battle animations, where they drop some enemy warriors with their first volley but do less well when the warriors close in.) They would fit with Globadiers and Clan Eshin Assassins which are planned to get them I think.

I think a plus to Withdrawal Chance makes a lot of sense for a Skaven racial promotion, this fits very well with their stealthiness and cowardice and actually could help offset a unit strength that's somewhat weaker. Also as was mentioned, units are "Warbands" represented on the regiment level; the Skaven would have more figures in each warband so they wouldn't necessarily have to be dramatically cheaper and weaker on the per-unit level.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i definately agree on withdrawl chance and warrens mechanics for skaven units.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

sounds good.

edit: Some personal blabber to fill you guys in on what has happened to me recently....


Last month I actually dug up my WH stuff, to get back into the WH mood and to celebrate my first free weekend after many construction/refurbishing work done for moving GF and then Sister.
Painted some miniatures, visited GWshop a few times to replace deadpaint. (as one is very near GF's new appartment)

Anyhow, then I went to Surinam on holidays...
I took my python books to study, but messing around in jungle is much more fun at 37degreesC, also had no computer available which makes coding a difficult mental excercise.

Getting back, one of my co-workers electrocuted himself (no obvious permanent damage) so I'm filling in for him and doing much of the hard labour he's not yet fit enough for.
Also they hired some new people to fill my boots while gone, so my hours are all messed up.
...still trying to get back into my rut.

...My rats are dying (3yrs old), soon I need to get a new nest.
Tumours is this batch's prefered method of death.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

@ AH: can you take a look at this python code for the Warrens and tell me whats missing? its exactly the same as the one in FfH and FfH warrens work... but this dosnt. i have no idea why.

		if city.getNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_WARRENS')) > 0:
			if isWorldUnitClass(unit.getUnitClassType()) == False:
				if isNationalUnitClass(unit.getUnitClassType()) == False:
					if unit.getUnitCombatType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE'):
						if unit.getUnitCombatType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL'):
							newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(unit.getUnitType(), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
							city.applyBuildEffects(newUnit)

 

[Arexack_heretic]

(I asume this code is pasted in 'onUnitBuilt'?)
this code does:
check the city if it has a warrens,
check whether the unit built is not worldUnitClass,
check whether the unit built is not a national unit,
check whether the unit built does not have Siege nor Naval combat,
if all above conditions apply, an additional unit of the same type is created on the city location, without AI and facing towards the south (default settings for new units)

so far it looks good. besides not being in OnUnitBuilt.
Another thing that might be missing is where the method gets the city data,
could it be there were definitions at the top of the code that defined which city was the city that built the unit?
(something like 'city = getCity(pUnit)' )