[GS] Skirmishers worth it?

[AriochIV]

My argument isn't about realism, but about gameplay comfort. I see your points, but I don't really care how they update either. I just want them to do it so that I don't have to painstakingly reroute them at the exact time I get the tech to a nearby friendly territory. That is busywork and not "an interesting decision", at least for me. But it isn't a big deal either...

I feel your pain, but they tried having the ability to upgrade units anywhere in Beyond Earth, and it really sucked.

 

[Socrates99]

Pretty sure the upgrade only exists to make your legacy scouts less squishy before rifling. As it stands you can stumble onto a barb camp with crossbows or pikes and lose your unit fast.

If you're still trying to play peacefully you're better off exploring with recon units than cavalry since you do have better "first impressions" when you meet a civ with a recon unit so I suppose there might be a situation where hard building one might make sense but I think that'd be rare.I

Mostly just interested in them when I play Cree. You could wind up with some highly promoted skirmishers and rangers down the road. That sweet sweet ambush promotion takes them from squishy recon to viable combat unit.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

They upgrade late enough that you'll have ample opportunity to generate more than necessary for garrisons. .

No. For garrison we need 30~50 units usually, and machinery is on the tech line of Printing (+3 strength overall) and Military Science(Cavalry), so may be researched very early. I feel that there won't be enough time to build scouts then.

 

[Tomice]

I think giving skirmishers and rangers 2 range (like spec ops) would make them viable.

 

[kryat]

The point isn’t necessarily to produce more skirmishers, but to make having a few scouts in the early game more valuable. Scouts are already fantastic at finding settlement locations, meeting other civs, generating era score from goody huts and natural wonders, and usually I can get to the second promotion just based on exploring. The problem is that they’re made of tissue paper by the time there’s swords or pikes on the map, so those promotions are kinda worthless by mid game. But the skirmisher gives them enough staying power to be relevant throughout the game. Likely, by the time you even unlock skirmishers, you could have 2-3 with 2 promotions each on the books. This extra agility coupled with their new found range means they could be in easy striking distance of getting those really powerful rank 3 and 4 promotions. A crossbowman who can move after attacking and can’t be seen unless adjacent? Sign me up.

 

[NegativeZero]

I'm really happy a civ in GS will have a recon UU.

The Inca's Warak'aq (Replaces the Skirmisher) with 40 ranged strength (up from 30) and may attack twice in a turn if movement points are remaining looks very interesting.

This is a replacement unit, so earlier produced scouts will upgrade into them which opens up many more possibilities for rushes. This also helps as recon units don't get a discount policy card (as far as we know).

It is also likely that these will cost more production than regular skirmishers due to their stats and ability. So being able to upgrade into them is paramount.

Their 40 ranged str. lets them hit just as hard as crossbows without any retaliation attacks from other units of their era. However, their melee strength remains low (20) making them ripe targets for faster mounted units.

With Warak`aq's double attack, they'll be able to take full advantage of Survey to get promotions very quickly. Upon reaching ambush (for an additional +20 combat str.), these UUs will become absolute monsters in combat vs. any unit within their era.

However, I feel they are more of a defensive unit based upon the Inca's starting mountain bias. With the numerous hills within Incan boarders it will be hard to assault them as they're 1st promotion will let Warak`aq ignore hill movement penalties.

Overall, I'm really excited for these UUs.

 

[rattatatouille]

Warak'aqs with Ambush have 40/60 strength. That's essentially a Field Cannon that trades off range for the ability to attack twice AND improved movement.

They'd suck at taking cities, but as unit-wrecking and defending goes, there's little else better.

 

[Pietato]

For garrison we need 30~50 units usually

What the crap...

 

[AmazonQueen]

What the crap...

Assume going for domination and not razing all the cities, sounds reasonable.

 

[Tech Osen]

If you're still trying to play peacefully you're better off exploring with recon units than cavalry since you do have better "first impressions" when you meet a civ with a recon unit so I suppose there might be a situation where hard building one might make sense but I think that'd be rare.I

You have a source for that?

 

[Sostratus]

My beef with the skirmisher is that it really just comes too late for its strength.

The game already has a 30/17 str, 3 move range unit - the pitati- that comes at archery and costs 70 and has two range. Now, not a lot of people would skip the xbow upgrade and sacrifice the range. They just wouldn't. So this regular skirm- probably not a battlefield bruiser.

What they did was they took the scout - a 10 strength unit- applied the +10str /era formula, came out the 30, made it a ranged unit. Ranged units feature a melee strength 10 below their attack strength. The only exception t this rule is the ranger, which is 60/45. but I'm guessing they didn't want it compete with field cannons. (They dont- they only have one range!) (note: siege units are not ranged units but even they sorta follow this)
The skirm would be very interesting as an early medieval unit at 35/30, though. A speedy and weak xbow!
The Warak is going to be a terror if you can barb hunt and do some limited warring with it.

With Warak`aq's double attack, they'll be able to take full advantage of Survey to get promotions very quickly. Upon reaching ambush (for an additional +20 combat str.), these UUs will become absolute monsters in combat vs. any unit within their era.

A group of tier 2 warak (easy enough with survey)+ the terracotta army (grants a free promo to all land units) give you the ambushers you need to run through everything including knights. (Construction is the tech before machinery, so you can probably make this work. The AI doesn't always prioritize this wonder.)
Then you can upgrade them in industrial to 80/65 Rangers (albeit no double attack) which makes them stronger than any non-UU industrial unit even in melee, including the new cuirassier. The only reason this even makes sense is because waraks actually hit really really hard so they can fight regular troops to seize the extra promotion or two to ambush.
Later on, of course, you see the industrial corps and modern era armies, plus the atomic spec ops. So you can take this same core of ambush warak and eventually land yourself some 102/97 spec ops armies that run through any terrain and paradrop and can snipe support units. A mech inf army does 102 melee, for reference.

It's too bad survey obsoletes at exploration. They really need to add some recon line cards- maybe an earlier update to survey that grants the experience and a double production, or maybe roll discipline in and grant them a combat boost vs barbs.

 

[Pietato]

Well they are supposed to be explorers...

I hope they automatically have extra sight.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Yes, well Recon class units don't get extra sight.

Settlers do though #WTH

 

[NegativeZero]

It's too bad survey obsoletes at exploration. They really need to add some recon line cards- maybe an earlier update to survey that grants the experience and a double production, or maybe roll discipline in and grant them a combat boost vs barbs.

Great post, I enjoyed reading it.

You didn't touch on the production costs of the Inca UU, but I'm assuming it will cost more to produce then regular skirmishers.

We can avoid Exploration at the moment to keep Survey, but I figure it will change. They attempted to change Survey in R&F so it only effects non-combat exp, but that didn't workout well and was changed back.

I do hope some policy cards affecting recon units happen within GS. These units could certainly do with some love to keep them viable for a majority of the civs (outside of gimmicks).

I keep getting the feeling that the Devs are hiding the Civic Tree because some Civ fans where asking about it in chat of the live stream Canada gameplay. When Hockey Rinks unlocked was never mentioned as well even though it was asked.

I'll be keeping my eyes wide open for the Civics tree and policy cards on the Inca stream that'll be happening shortly.

 

[Victoria]

3 gpt maintenance seems a bit much to me, but that may change, the game is still not done

This is the killer to me... why bother when a horseman has 4 MP, 2 gold maintenance and is much much stronger. Why in the name of Gilgamesh does some foot skirmishers cost the same to maintain as Knights. Bottom line is knights were expensive to maintain and should be 5 gold each. This would fix so much in my view. Skirmisher should be 2 to maintain and not so much to produce.
Look at these stats and tell me my you would use a skirmisher instead? I guess the cost of an upgrade of your scout is 130 gold and its handier... and with mercenaries that 65 gold so not too bad but a knight upgrade is 90 amd the same maintenance

killing a (barb) Skirmisher will not be that easy

Good, I am tired of an entire army abandoning their homeland.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

This is the killer to me... why bother when a horseman has 4 MP, 2 gold maintenance and is much much stronger. Why in the name of Gilgamesh does some foot skirmishers cost the same to maintain as Knights. Bottom line is knights were expensive to maintain and should be 5 gold each. This would fix so much in my view. Skirmisher should be 2 to maintain and not so much to produce.
Look at these stats and tell me my you would use a skirmisher instead? I guess the cost of an upgrade of your scout is 130 gold and its handier... and with mercenaries that 65 gold so not too bad but a knight upgrade is 90 amd the same maintenance

I dare say when you have access to Horses, Horsemen make the best explorers and skirmishers. That's fairly historical. If there's a limit to the number of mounted units you can field, though, you might save those Horses for Knights instead and use Skirmishers then. Would be nice to have some choices on how best to allocate the strategic resources you have access to.