Slavery --> Caste System

[Iakhovas]

Do you usualy switch right after researching CoL or wait for citities to grow to decent size? And do you switch back in certain situations?(which ones) Im talking about normal speed.

 

[michmbk]

It depends (like everything in civ). Most of the time, I would say I switch to caste quickly after COL, because that's a point in time where I'm trying to grow my cities actively, and there's the side benefit of the workshops as well. However, some games where I have lots of food and limited happiness resources, I'll whip like crazy all the way up until emancipation. In fact, I had a game recently where I only had 5 cities and not great food, so once I hit lib-steel, I whipped everything but my capital constantly for about 20-30 turns to get an army together fast. So it's situational, but I would say probably 3/4 of the time or so, I'll switch to caste immediately. Again, with a lot of food and limited happiness resources, I'll tend to stay in slavery longer.

 

[DaveMurray]

Do you usualy switch right after researching CoL or wait for citities to grow to decent size? And do you switch back in certain situations?(which ones) Im talking about normal speed.

Although I primarily play marathon, I find that even besides the whole unit thing, having slavery is key to rebuilding key infrastructure improvements in a warmongering game so in that case, I won't switch out until later in the game when I'm just conquering land for the dom win and not for it's production value. Also, if you have a low happy cap and lots of food, then staying to slavery might be the best thing. Whip out an army and go take some happy resources. Then switch. Conversely, if you have a high happy cap, and lots of food, then by all means switch right away and take advantage of all those extra scientists.

Really though, there isn't a right answer and it's all going to depend on your situation as to whether or not caste or slavery is better. The biggest thing is to make sure that if you switch, you're doing it because you can take advantage of the benefits of the new civic and not just because it's the newest civic available.

 

[Indiansmoke]

This is the real power of spiritual...plan your whips switch for 5 turns to caste run GP and sweitch to slavery again.

If not spiritual losing slavery that early in the game is usually not worth it.

 

[UncleJJ]

I would not switch out of slavery until I had at least built courthouses in all my cities, some of those would need the whip to help get them there quickly. The reason I research CoL is for courthouses which are key buildings in rescuing my economy as soon as I have more than 10 cities.

 

[futurehermit]

I usually swap to caste when:

1) Pacificism is also available
2) I am in hereditary rule and am looking to grow cities vertically instead of whipping them
3) When I am looking to generate GSs for the liberalism race
4) When I am settling into generating GArts for pursuing a cultural victory
5) When I am transitioning to a workshop-driven hammer economy, especially with SP

 

[Iranon]

I find Slavery much, much more powerful.

I'll use Caste System to complement Pacifism (for an ambitious lightbulb/liberalism plan. Steel I can usually get without such concessions) or State Property (grudgingly, as I prefer corporations if I have the breathing room to set them up)... but generally speaking I prefer to solve my production needs with slavery and to whip some specialist-enabling infrastructure rather than use the unlimited slots.

 

[Artichoker]

I find Slavery much, much more powerful.

I'll use Caste System to complement Pacifism (for an ambitious lightbulb/liberalism plan. Steel I can usually get without such concessions) or State Property (grudgingly, as I prefer corporations if I have the breathing room to set them up)... but generally speaking I prefer to solve my production needs with slavery and to whip some specialist-enabling infrastructure rather than use the unlimited slots.

I mostly agree, but let me elaborate...

Caste System is an excellent civic if the following 3 conditions are met:

1) You are running Pacifism

2) You are in a Golden Age

3) All specialist-running cities have near-max food


If these 3 conditions are met, you can use the Golden Age to enable a free switch into Caste System, along with other civics changes. Because your cities nave near-max food, you can have them run many more specialists than they would in an ordinary situation. On the very last turn of the Golden Age, you'll probably want to switch out of Pacifism and into Organized Religion, Theocracy, or Free Religion, depending on the situation.

Apart from this special application of the civic, Caste System gradually redeems itself near late-Renaissance, when most of your cities probably already have most of their essential buildings. At this point, the +1 hammer bonus from workshops starts to pay off in comparison to Slavery.

By combining both applications of Caste System (the unlimited specialists and the +1 hammer from workshops), it's often possible to time the Golden Age so that it comes right when you're about to finish the last few important great people that you want, and you're about to transition into workshop-based production mode (in combination with Chemistry).

 

[Jamuka]

Switching to caste can speed up the liberalism race, and is useful if you can whip courthouses in quickly enough beforehand.

 

[troytheface]

as the greatest player civ4 has ever known and the smartest poster on the board, i suggest that it not even close, slavery is the superior for every situation.

never switch

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

This is the real power of spiritual...plan your whips switch for 5 turns to caste run GP and sweitch to slavery again.

If not spiritual losing slavery that early in the game is usually not worth it.

+1
Oh, and spiritual is great for preparing a well promoted army without having a charismatic, imperialistic, or aggressive trait.

 

[the reverend]

If you can run representation (probably through Pyramids) Caste System is much stronger. Caste System also has great uses if you're going for a cultural win. If you don't have the population so that you could fill the extra slots, though, I would stick with slavery until you could benefit from Caste System.

 

[Iranon]

The production angle:

Farm vs. CS workshop is 3 vs. 2 for much of the game. If that food is used for whipping, they break even at size 10 (average during regrowth, e.g. a 12-to-9 whip).
Under ideal circumstances - 4 vs. 2 run through the Kremlin - the break even point is at size 12.5 (e.g. a 14-to-12 whip).

Sometimes, efficiency isn't the main factor. Slavery allows emergency garrisons, whipping a city into oblivion for getting an army fast and mass infrastructure whipping of new acquisitions, getting rid of unproductive striking citizens and keeping excessive maintenance down until the infrastructure to balance that is in place.

On the other hand, mass food inflates population size for a comparable number of tiles worked and output... sometimes desirable, it usually creates more problems than benefits. Also, whipping doesn't apply to *all* excess food... some will have to go to food-deficit tiles or specialists which might or might not be attractive. Unlike Caste System, Slavery can't efficiently set up pure production cities on a football field.

*

Representation works well with either... for me Representation synergises even better with Slavery because you can't channel all of your food surplus into the whip and better specialists ensures decent returns on spare food.

Caste System I find more useful for short-term gains... sprinting to a key tech, milking a golden age or equalising via bulb&trade if I didn't have the breathing room to get the Pyramids or an adequate commerce base.
Representation affects the part of the specialist output that's run through multipliers, not lightbulbs... meaning multiplier infrastructure (which also provide specialist slots) become MORE relevant.