Slavery: overrated?

penco

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
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According to many guides and threads at CivFanatics, slavery is awesome/overpowered/broken and you are a fool for not utilizing it. However, every time I try to really abuse slavery, I end up getting stomped. My conclusion is that when you run slavery, your goal should not be to whip in every city at every possible opportunity. But that begs the question, "Well, when?"

When is the best time to whip? In what kinds of cities? Should I just have a few isolated food/whip/specialist cities and make the rest play as normal? The more I think about it, the less wise it seems to whip in a capital, since you will ideally want a few high-commerce tiles like river towns by the time you hit bureaucracy. Running specialists/whips does not exactly compliment growing cottages.

Thoughts?
 
Cottages don't equal good play, but you're right that you don't want to whip them constantly. But overrated? No. Looking at the majority of the playthroughs on the forum, I would say underused, so underrated.
 
It's overrated. You shouldn't whip away the premium tiles (up to size 4-5, usually), and you shouldn't whip after a city gets mature (size 8-9 or so), except perhaps coastal cities that can work coastal tiles as ersatz production tiles with slavery. Slavery is solid for size 6-8 cities that want a little extra production for a Classical era war, when just a couple extra units carry a lot of weight. Well, and imperialistic settler whips.

Caste system is the strongest labor civic for most of the game. It opens up valuable GPP slots and the workshops are more efficient hammers than whipping for most cities. The feudalism-machinery-guilds route and the paper-education-liberalism route both get significant boosts from this choice.
 
Well, the capital often has enough production to build the needed infrastructure without whipping, but the auxiliary cities might lack production. With slavery, you can make ANY city productive just by maximizing food, and except biology (and to an extend corporations) you'll have all the food techs and multipliers (granary!) the games offers in the BCs, which, to some extend, enables crazy amounts of hammers very early in the game.

Watch AbsoluteZero's videos on youtube if you want to see heavy slavery abusage, he'll whip his cities down to the point where they're unhappy @ pop2 but maintains a high production output regardless, which enables him effective warfare. Ofc other players know and use that technique aswell, but the most don't have YouTube videos up, so AZ is a good example that you might want to see.

Also remember overflow, this can help set you up infra fast and effectly.
 
Slavery is super useful early when you can get more total production out of food tiles but are limited by the happiness cap. At higher difficulties whipping might also be what saves you from losing a city, and whip overflow can be the difference between getting that key wonder and getting beaten by just one or two turns. I personally love using the free artist from music to power a golden age after whipping/chopping the MoM and my classical era strategy often revolves around that. Every last hammer for a wonder you're planning around helps and whip overflow is indispensable.

It's also kind of the only way to get any real infrastructure built in hammer poor cities. A revenue city with tons of cottages benefits huge overall from a few key whips for a bank, market etc. What you lose in that case is hugely outweighed by the gain.

Whipping units can also be the difference between a swift early victory over a nearby AI and an attack that's a few turns too slow and let them get up walls or longbows.
 
Never ending flow of slavery threads :D
If anything, it's underrated. Most important civic in many games.
If you cannot make use of huge short term boosts, you need to make more detailed plans :)
Ofc it depends on the diff. level you play, it gets more important the higher you go.
 
For stable cities at their caps: Using slavery well can give you better efficiency well into double-digit sizes if you use it efficiently (long cycles are more efficient than short ones: grow into unhappiness, whip 2-3, grow back to pre-whip cap the turn unhappiness wears off, repeat).
No need to do this in cities where you run only good tiles and specialists you actually want - mess it up once and waste more than you gained over 2 dozen turns micromanaging it.
Sometimes it's easy though - if you need to waste a natural food surplus on citizens who're literally not worth the food they eat, whip away. Desert mines give a net loss until size 12-ish, specialists may also count.

The whip truly shines in cities that haven't reached their growth caps yet but need production asap - you get a good rate for food:hammers, and investing in food first means you get to work more tiles earlier. Garrisons, something for culture, a courthouse if you're struggling with maintenance from hard expansion... these don't build themselves and if you're going to whip a lot anyway an early forge is also going to be attractive.

Last not least, the whip gives you flexibility. I you have a narrow window for a successful war, you may decide to whip repeatedly to get an offense started earlier (risky but I've done it with success). If you're on the defense, a whipped-down and angry city with 2 emergency defenders is better than an intact city in enemy hands.
Cities may be worth settling despite having no production potential - e.g. 1-tile islands just for the trade routes. The ability to whip basic infrastructure is going to make these a real asset much, much earlier.

I think it's a very powerful mechanic, quite likely to be the one that separates serious from casual players.
 
Instant 60 hammers for 2 pop? Why not? It would be foolish to not abuse it. ;)

Slavery is awesome in high food low production sites where building infrastructure would take forever normally. Why wait to get a building when you can have it now? Your happiness cap is gonna prevent you from growing that large early on anyways.

This is extremely important because production usually is very weak early game. You're extremely busy focusing on food to get a city productive and cannot support very many mines. But food... food is plentiful.

I also like whipping workers/settlers a lot, since these halt growth anyways.

If you're having trouble with slavery, remember not to whip more than once every 10 turns, otherwise the unhappiness stacks. And of course, don't whip away the good tiles. Whip away weak tiles or angry citizens.
 
Caste system is the strongest labor civic for most of the game. It opens up valuable GPP slots and the workshops are more efficient hammers than whipping for most cities. The feudalism-machinery-guilds route and the paper-education-liberalism route both get significant boosts from this choice.

How are workshops hammers more "efficient" than whipping hammers?
Also Slavery is enabled ages before workshops ever become something other than a -1F, +1P terrible trade thing.
Kinda got me confused there.
 
How are workshops hammers more "efficient" than whipping hammers?
Also Slavery is enabled ages before workshops ever become something other than a -1F, +1P terrible trade thing.
Kinda got me confused there.

As Iranon already stated it's often not too useful to whip in alot of cities, you may want to keep stable city configurations, and this is where workshops begin to be useful. After all they're a 3H tile even without guilds/chemistry - that might be not too hot, but if you're reaching the time of vertical growth you might not want to whip that much anymore, and you'll still need some production then.

Strongest labour civic is pretty much tied between slavery and CS imo, although it pretty much depends on the map. Usually i prefer slavery as i'm a warmonger ;)
 
How are workshops hammers more "efficient" than whipping hammers?
Also Slavery is enabled ages before workshops ever become something other than a -1F, +1P terrible trade thing.
Kinda got me confused there.

workshop bonus
base: -1F +1P
CS: +1P
Guild: +1P
Chem: +1P
State Property: +1F

The first 4 can be ready by 1200AD on a standard map, which comes right before you master Steel (the tech right after Chem) and prepare enough hammer power for you to wage a cannon war.
 
Something as so powerful as slavery really can't be overrated. Workshops/caste are nice. I do love me some unlimited scientists with caste and workshop powered productive state.. but slavery helps you thrust your early game production. And since all effects in earlier decisions are exponential (just the nature of this game), there's really no doubt which is more significantly important imo.
 
How are workshops hammers more "efficient" than whipping hammers?
Also Slavery is enabled ages before workshops ever become something other than a -1F, +1P terrible trade thing.
Kinda got me confused there.

For the moment I'll focus on a very simple question - when are workshops more efficient than farms for production?

I start by noting that generally you want your cities to be at their happy-cap, so your most efficient whipping is when you're bumping pop up to happy cap, then whipping 1 pop away and losing 1 happy cap for 10 turns.

It's possible to do some fairly easy apples-to-apples comparisons for this. For example: If you replace 1 farm with 1 workshop before Code of Laws, you lose 2 food and gain 1 hammer. This means workshops are preferable if the food -> hammers conversion from slavery is worse than 2F -> 1H. In point of fact (assuming you have a granary), your exchange rate is: 15F + 1.5F/city size + 10 lost worker-turns due to lower happy-cap (which is equal to 10 lost food from not working a farm) -> 30H. In order for workshops to be stronger, you'd need a size 24 or larger city. Because it's... let's call it uncommon... to have a size-24 city before Guilds, workshops tend to be weaker than farms in total production before Guilds.

You're free to go do the comparisons yourself for all sorts of other cases, but I've gone ahead and done most of them. The results are fairly clear. Ignoring weird cases (like cities that are over size-24 before Guilds, under size-3 after Caste System, or under size-7 after Biology)...
Farms are better than Workshops before Caste System.
Workshops are better than Farms after Caste System if you aren't Aztec.

Farms are better than workshops in Caste System but before Guilds for Aztecs if their average city size is less than 7.
Farms are better than workshops for horizontal Aztec empires (average size <14) who are not in Caste System, not in State Property, have Biology, and have The Kremlin.

However, there are five other major factors which have to be considered - three of which favor workshops, and two of which favor slavery.

First, the ones favoring slavery.
It allows for explosive production at the cost of lower efficiency. You may end up giving up a total of 140 hammers of production to get a cannon, but get that cannon right away instead of 5 or 10 turns down the line. You could even whip a size-14 city all the way down to a size-4 city in rapid order, using your citizens as stored hammers to get a massive military force assembled quickly. It's horrendously costly (you'll probably have paid for every unit twice over in lost production by the time your economy recovers), but it can be decisive. If you expect to be drafting a lot of units and whipping a bunch of cannons shortly, it might not be a good idea to start switching over from farms to workshops as soon as you get Guilds. Similarly, it lets you whip out a "panic" unit if you suddenly see an enemy near an undefended city, or whip out that initial granary and/or monument which help a city get going when first settled if you don't have chops available.
Food-based production also ties in better with some common early-game situations: cities which need multiple to grow up to size quickly don't need to have all their farms replaced with workshops (wasting worker-turns), and cities making settlers and workers are more efficient relying on farms before caste system, and about as efficient before guilds.

Second, the ones favoring workshops.
The biggest is that it lets you run Caste System, which makes paying upkeep and grabbing beakers much easier and gives you much better GP farms. It's often the case that there's a minor production lull between early catapult warfare (or earlier) and Liberalism, in which production (while still important) is not as important as tech rate - simply because all the good land is already taken, and war is horrendously costly. In that case, you can rely on a few workshops to supplement minor production needs while mostly just hurrying your tech pattern along to Lib.
The second one is that the "ideal" whipping I mentioned earlier (whipping down 1 size, then growing back up over the next 10 turns so you're always at happy cap) is simply not practical a lot of the time, particularly for larger-ticket items. If you end up whipping away 3 sizes, and take 15 turns to grow them back (one every 5 turns), workshops are actually a more effective means of production before Caste System for cities with happy caps above 10.
The third one is that slavery production is fundamentally capped. You can't sustain more than 3 hammers per turn from a city (raw; a forge can push that up more) for any significant length of time from slavery unless you're Aztec. If you have an early empire with very few hills but lots of river and grass, you may not be able to get enough hammers out of slavery to handle your basic production needs, in which case you have to start setting up workshops.
 
Going for Cannons does set you up nicely for Workshops, since you tend to get the Workshop-enhancing techs (you need Chemistry for certain while Guilds is optional but could possibly be traded-for).

However, if you're going for Cuirassiers, chances are that you are (at least for a while) skipping Guilds + Chemistry (Gunpowder can come from its Education optional pre-requisite instead of from its Guilds optional pre-requisite).

Workshops look far less attractive when you get -1 Food + 2 Hammers from them and also have to give up on the use of Slavery.


Even with access to Guilds and Chemistry, you might still be better off whipping your army than building it using Workshops, not only in order to get the army sooner, but when your land isn't very conducive to building a lot of Workshops (maps with a lot of Coastal Cities are one such example).


Still, the case for Caste System + Workshops is compelling, with the caveat that you'll almost certainly be able to benefit from using Slavery in the early game compared to not using Slavery at all.


Then there's the whole "well, I captured a bunch of Cities with angry people, I can either whip them down and get a couple of buildings or they can starve off and not give me anything" argument for a later-game Slavery. Workshops won't help you in newly-captured Cities where the citizens are refusing to work due to Unhappiness issues.
 
Using slavery properly probably means jumping up at least one full difficulty level by itself.
 
The logic is pretty simple to understand.
There are places where the tiles are valuable, you surely dun want to whip a city with 2 gold mines and just 1 good food tile ;)

And there are places with food, some hills and no commerce. Or just sea tiles, well no good commerce. Those cities don't get prettier while you hang around at the happy cap, you won't see an effect in your beakers process and just overall not much is happening while things are slowly built.
With slavery, they might be very productive.

To make it easier, here is an example of a city that asks for the whip at a certain point:
1 pig, a copper mine, 1 gras mine. Nothing else to work besides forests and blank tiles.
Ideally you want a granary in this city, keep it at size 3 to work the 3 good tiles, and whip as soon as it reaches size 4. You can then balance things a bit, sometimes whip 2 pop and skip the gras mine for a few turns, and so on.
This allows you to get the best out of this city.

Another good tactic is to let cities grow over the happy cap, to whip it all away for something expensive. Don't be scared of unhappy folks, even those are useful for a big whip.
A good example here would be a forge, might take forever to build the normal way, but if you think about it: 4 citizens do the trick. No difference between happy or unhappy, food = hammers.
And after you whipped, you gain some hapiness from gold/gems/silver.
 
The third one is that slavery production is fundamentally capped. You can't sustain more than 3 hammers per turn from a city (raw; a forge can push that up more) for any significant length of time from slavery unless you're Aztec. If you have an early empire with very few hills but lots of river and grass, you may not be able to get enough hammers out of slavery to handle your basic production needs, in which case you have to start setting up workshops.

Your whole analysis was quite good, but I don't think you addressed the case of using a 2 pop whip to gain 60 hammers, (6 hammers per turn spread over 10 turns) which is usually the most efficient way of using slavery.

I find slavery extremely good when

1)Starting a new city. Hook up 1 or 2 good food resources, chop a granary, and then whip a forge, monument, courthouse, and whatever else you need. With enough food surplus, the city can continue to grow while doing this, or just stack up unhappiness because it'll be far below the cap.

2)You don't have enough workers to improve all your tiles. Easy decision to use slavery, then.

3)Seafood cities with no hills. How else are you going to get production there?

4)The rush factor, when you need to suddenly produce a defense force, or go on the offensive before your tech advantage expires. In this case, getting those units out a few turns sooner is worth crashing your economy.

In other situations it's a lot more marginal. I think people overuse it too much without realizing how much it costs- not only do you lose the pop, but you also lose 1 potential pop for 10 turns, because of the whip anger. If that potential pop would have been working a mine, you just lost 30 or 40 hammers.
 
Once a city is capped, your choices to shut off growth are usually the whip, workshops, or specialists. Caste system favors 2/3. Cities with 10+ extra food (2+ food power tiles) simply grow too fast to fully use slavery, but 5 scientists from caste mean you'll win the liberalism race unless something goes horribly wrong. Later, workshops are stronger than the whip for this city.

I think the issue is that guilds is seen as very far away, when it really isn't. It's something you can get to by trade or theft not too much after the education bulb path. It's not even a weak path itself; grabbing economics first can be much more lucrative than just barely winning the liberalism race and picking nationalism. :sad: Mercantilism and free market also tend to be stronger civics than free religion and free speech, which are usually weaker than pacifism and bureaucracy.
 
A city is not capped due to unhapiness, if you don't let it grow despite having unhappy ppl you are missing out on an important tactic.
 
so your most efficient whipping is when you're bumping pop up to happy cap, then whipping 1 pop away and losing 1 happy cap for 10 turns.

Given the way food math/ happy math works, I need to see a calculation that demonstrates that 1 pop whips are "more efficient" than 2 pop whips.

If you end up whipping away 3 sizes, and take 15 turns to grow them back (one every 5 turns)

This assumption seems very suspect to me. Much more typical would be to front load the food to get to the happy cap, then slow grow timing the food bin to fill just as the unhappy expires.


The conclusion might still be right, of course.
 
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