Slavery: overrated?

1-pop whipping is inherently wasteful.

At a stable happy cap, most efficient is growing into unhappiness (very slowly is therotetically most efficient here when you don't really need the whip), then whipping 2.
You're working <cap> citizens some of the time, <cap -1> during the rest rather than <cap-1> all the time in constant 1-pop whipping; it's easy to make the cycles less than twice as long.
If you're whipping cap raisers, you can regrow quickly without restriction and the efficiency of the whip further increases.
 
1-pop-whips may still be useful if you want to finish a cap raiser with the overflow it provides. I've found myself to 1-pop whip often just for that.
 
In other situations it's a lot more marginal. I think people overuse it too much without realizing how much it costs- not only do you lose the pop, but you also lose 1 potential pop for 10 turns, because of the whip anger. If that potential pop would have been working a mine, you just lost 30 or 40 hammers.

And just gained 30 hammers from whipping... maybe 60 if you whipped 2 pop out.
At the most I'd be losing a hammer or 2 per turn until I get to the cap again - which I can live with considering I got what I wanted many turns faster.


I start by noting that generally you want your cities to be at their happy-cap, so your most efficient whipping is when you're bumping pop up to happy cap, then whipping 1 pop away and losing 1 happy cap for 10 turns.

There is no difference in a size 4 city, no angry citizens to a size 5 with 1 angry citizen... except that by doing a 2 pop whip in the second case I'm only losing 1 working citizen, plus dealing with the unhappiness.
From then you can grow to size 4, -1 happy and do a 2pop whip again to a size 2, 0 happy, grow back to 5 and repeat.
You're producing 120 hammers and losing 1 pop for about 5 turns, than 2 pop for 5t, and a final 1 pop when you're growing back to the cap again for the last 5 turns.
(By losing pop, I mean compared to the 4 you would have constantly by not whipping at all).

At a maximum hammer condition for these pops I'd be losing on 4P(1pop) x 5t + 8P(2pop) x 5t + 4P(1pop) x 5t = 80P in 15 turns from the first whip.
But because I'm going to do a second whip, I'm gaining 120P instead... and much earlier than those 80P if I have enough food to grow from 3 to 4 in about 5 turns. In fact, that's 9 turns earlier compared to the 15 it would take, and 40P on top of it.
 
It's the same problem as usual, some guys are talking about playing on Monarch or Emperor, some of us talk about Deity.
On Deity (maybe Immortal too sometimes, not sure) you are often under such pressure that you *have* to get your stuff out as soon as possible. There is no yada yada, should i work this mine and keep the citizens happy instead? You need your stuff NOW :)
 
I agree, in the early game I often find myself whipping settlers "sub-optimally" just so I could get to a good city spot before the AI; I'd rather save myself from boring micro computations and waste a few early food+hammers than let someone like Willem or Liz get to that yummy floodplains & gold city spot :P
 
@Mylene, Agree.

1 pop whips are not efficient but they're sometimes necessary especially for monuments and work boats. If you're working one good food tile though don't whip a workboat at size 2 with the foodbox empty, you want to work 2 good tiles immed. You don't want to lose time to grow to size 2. So whip at size 3 or size 2 with the foodbox almost full.

Slavery is underrated, i suspect that people who get stomped either

Do too many 1 pop whips

Or

Whip away citizens working prime tiles because they're told to use the whip frequently
 
It's the same problem as usual, some guys are talking about playing on Monarch or Emperor, some of us talk about Deity

I'd attribute that to the fact that two different questions are being asked. Deity doesn't make slavery more efficient, it just makes it more necessary.


At a stable happy cap, most efficient is growing into unhappiness (very slowly is therotetically most efficient here when you don't really need the whip), then whipping 2.

I'm not sure that "most efficient" is right here. If you are trying to use a repeatable cycle to do your analysis, then you have to either have to calculate using a longer cycle time, or you have to account for the wasted unhappy citizen you end up with (the core problem being that you can't grow two pop on the last turn of the unhappy cycle, so something has to give).
 
In other situations it's a lot more marginal. I think people overuse it too much without realizing how much it costs- not only do you lose the pop, but you also lose 1 potential pop for 10 turns, because of the whip anger. If that potential pop would have been working a mine, you just lost 30 or 40 hammers.
And just gained 30 hammers from whipping... maybe 60 if you whipped 2 pop out.
At the most I'd be losing a hammer or 2 per turn until I get to the cap again - which I can live with considering I got what I wanted many turns faster.

Just losing a hammer or 2 at most? I guess if you're whipping away plains cottages that's true, but then you're sacrificing commerce, not hammers. The direct comparison for production is with slavery vs. mines or workshops.

Let's say the city is at the happiness cap, and it's food neutral, working at least 3 grass hill mines. By using slavery, you have to give up one of those mines for 10 turns (= 30 hammers lost) AND lose the production from another while regrowing AND lose the third from switching it to a food tile so that you can regrow fast enough.

If it takes 5 turns to regrow the first whipped mine, and another 5 turns to regrow the second, with the third working a food tile for 10 turns, you're losing 10 + 10 + 5 = 25 mine turns, for 25*3 = 75 hammers. Giving up 75 hammers to gain 60, woo. And that's for a two pop whip- it's much worse for a one-pop or three-pop whip.

That's why I claimed that it was often marginal- it can be good, but it's less efficient than working a mine. Obviously if you need something finished immediately there's no choice but to whip it, but realize that you're losing hammers in the long term by doing that.
 
^ But 5 turns regrow time is way too long. In that case you need a granary or the city is just not fit for whipping. Also you assume it's mines that are whipped away.

Even with mines it's very often good to whip even the capital. Take an early game cap with a big food surplus and a plain tile mine and a grassland mine. Grow to size 6 (or at least until foodbox is full at size 5). Now whip. You gain 60 H, you lose 30 H from not working the grassland mine for 10 turns (you keep on working the plain tile mine). Also you have your worker/settler/building earlier.

Whipping is not marginal by any means, the situation i describe above is not even ideal for whipping.
 
Let's say the city is at the happiness cap, and it's food neutral, working at least 3 grass hill mines. By using slavery, you have to give up one of those mines for 10 turns (= 30 hammers lost) AND lose the production from another while regrowing AND lose the third from switching it to a food tile so that you can regrow fast enough.

If it takes 5 turns to regrow the first whipped mine, and another 5 turns to regrow the second, with the third working a food tile for 10 turns, you're losing 10 + 10 + 5 = 25 mine turns, for 25*3 = 75 hammers. Giving up 75 hammers to gain 60, woo. And that's for a two pop whip- it's much worse for a one-pop or three-pop whip.

That's why I claimed that it was often marginal- it can be good, but it's less efficient than working a mine. Obviously if you need something finished immediately there's no choice but to whip it, but realize that you're losing hammers in the long term by doing that.

Just that this situation rarely happens in a time where slavery is still > Caste.
You grew this city to it's food cap and it's working at least 3 mines, sounds like this took you some time + workers.
How can you compare the "loss" of hammers to the loss of time, that's the thing.
Was it worth it to wait x turns for being able to work all mines?
How many hammers is time worth? How much is a hammer worth?
You can't tell without seeing a map, and it's hardly compareable.
 
If it takes 5 turns to regrow the first whipped mine, and another 5 turns to regrow the second, with the third working a food tile for 10 turns, you're losing 10 + 10 + 5 = 25 mine turns, for 25*3 = 75 hammers. Giving up 75 hammers to gain 60, woo. And that's for a two pop whip- it's much worse for a one-pop or three-pop whip.

That's why I claimed that it was often marginal- it can be good, but it's less efficient than working a mine. Obviously if you need something finished immediately there's no choice but to whip it, but realize that you're losing hammers in the long term by doing that.

That's for a two pop whip at the happy cap. What I said was a 2 pop whip at -1 happiness. This way you only lose 1 mine, since the other pop you whipped was doing nothing.
This way you give up 30P in 10 turns for 60P right now... how bad of a trade is that?
 
not only do you lose the pop, but you also lose 1 potential pop for 10 turns, because of the whip anger. If that potential pop would have been working a mine, you just lost 30 or 40 hammers.

Perhaps, but you gained whatever it was that you whipped in the first place - a settler to claim a city spot from the AI, a worker to improve tiles and enhance your yields, a library to let you run scientists and multiply your beakers, a unit to defend a city or capture one. You got something important and useful sooner rather than later.

Caste is my favourite labour civic, but slavery is absolutely necessary in a lot of games simply because the element of timing is so crucial. Abstract concepts of long-term hammer efficiency don't take the actual, immediate game situation into consideration. Not whipping something that allows an opportunity for explosive gain or growth because of lost hammers is tunnel-vision, because the gain will often exponentially outweigh the cost - for example, a new city that will net you vastly more than the 30 or 40 lost hammers.

Some players do their civ calculations in an overly deterministic, "Newtonian" manner, whereas in actuality civ often displays more chaotic tendencies where minor events can snowball into massive ones (ie, a non-linear, butterfly effect model). The objective in civ is not to maintain long-term stability and continuity, the objective is to make drastic changes that put your civ at the top of the world league table. Saying that it is inefficient to sacrifice some long-term hammers for an immediate gain is a bit like saying that it's inefficient to sacrifice your catapults to destroy the enemy SoD or capture their capital.
 
I'm not sure that "most efficient" is right here. If you are trying to use a repeatable cycle to do your analysis, then you have to either have to calculate using a longer cycle time, or you have to account for the wasted unhappy citizen you end up with (the core problem being that you can't grow two pop on the last turn of the unhappy cycle, so something has to give).

Not sure we're on the same page here... cycle time is longer, but that's not a problem.

For me, the considerations are
1) volume (a 2-3 pop whip every 10 turns isn't very efficient because you lose many citizenturns, but may be worth doing anyway if you have no other production options or they suck even more).
2) efficiency (how much do you have to give up in direct yields per additional hammer? Often, whipping can add a few hammers even if you have more hills than you can work.)

You obviously don't care about volume if you do 1-pop whips, so we can focus on efficiency. Grow to unhappiness, immediately whip 2 so there are no unhappy citizens at any end of turn, grow to old cap in 10 turns, cycle complete. Note that the part between whip and following regrowth is the same as the 1-pop cycle.

If our pre-whip cap is 10 and our 10th citizen works an otherwise dead ocean tile during the time the cycles differ, we are 10 commerce ahead and 1 food behind if we do a 2-pop whip every 20 turns instead of a 1-pop whip every 10 turns. If we're restricted by caps and have better filler available, this becomes even more attractive.
 
Not sure we're on the same page here...

Might not be - here's some vocabulary:

If we are going to compare whip production to some other alternative, then we should be doing so over some interval where the end points are equivalent. Start at condition A (food bin, happy) then T turns later arrive at condition B (food bin, happy). You want B to be the same for both alterntives, because otherwise you end up complicating the analysis with comparisons of B and B'.

If condition B is the same as condition A, then you have a cycle; and more to the point you have a sustainable cycle - you can continue doing what you did indefinitely.

T then defines the period of the cycle. With whipping, to get the happy to balance out you need the period to be at least 10 turns, but of course it could be longer.


Now, I understood you to be thinking about a two pop whip scenario where you start from a state where you have an unhappy pop. So it might be something like happy capped at 6, and you're whipping from 7 to 5 instead of from 6 to 4. So the caution I was offering is this - that in a 7->5 whip, you can't get back to size 7 in 10 turns without spending at least one turn at size 6 with only 5 happy (without resorting to crazy things like the hanging gardens). So either you are feeding an unhappy citizen at some point, or you are needing 11 or more turns to get back to condition A.

If you weren't talking about a 7->5 whip across the happy cap, then we weren't on the same page at all.
 
I'd attribute that to the fact that two different questions are being asked. Deity doesn't make slavery more efficient, it just makes it more necessary.

More like it punishes improper usage of it and avoiding it when it should be used more severely.

ROI on slavery considerations really don't change by difficulty; margin for error just gets smaller as you go up.
 
Might not be - here's some vocabulary:

If we are going to compare whip production to some other alternative, then we should be doing so over some interval where the end points are equivalent. Start at condition A (food bin, happy) then T turns later arrive at condition B (food bin, happy). You want B to be the same for both alterntives, because otherwise you end up complicating the analysis with comparisons of B and B'.

If condition B is the same as condition A, then you have a cycle; and more to the point you have a sustainable cycle - you can continue doing what you did indefinitely.

T then defines the period of the cycle. With whipping, to get the happy to balance out you need the period to be at least 10 turns, but of course it could be longer.

No problems so far. I see no problem comparing cycles of different length, efficiency is about average yield.
'Grow to unhappiness, immediately whip 2 so there are no unhappy citizens at any end of turn, grow to old cap in 10 turns, cycle complete' is one cycle. It appears that you thought that I thought (...) that the first 'grow to unhappiness' was a once-off prerequisite and we'd have 10-turn cycles thereafter. I didn't.

Now, I understood you to be thinking about a two pop whip scenario where you start from a state where you have an unhappy pop. So it might be something like happy capped at 6, and you're whipping from 7 to 5 instead of from 6 to 4. So the caution I was offering is this - that in a 7->5 whip, you can't get back to size 7 in 10 turns without spending at least one turn at size 6 with only 5 happy (without resorting to crazy things like the hanging gardens). So either you are feeding an unhappy citizen at some point, or you are needing 11 or more turns to get back to condition A.

I would indeed whip from 7 to 5, but I find it easier to define 'at stable cap, just the Granary reserve in the bin' as my starting/end point for all cases. That describes a city that has just grown into its cap, and makes equal sense for stable cities and just about any sane cycle.
For an example, let's also make our job easier by bumping the happy cap to 10:

Short cycle: 9 citizens with food surplus of 2, whipping for 1 every 10 turns as we regrow and anger wears off. Almost stable, we gain 1 food each cycle.

Long cycle: We work the same 9 citizens for 10 turns, then assign the 10th citizen work a filler tile that feeds itself - grassland forest, water with a lighthouse etc. We grow to size 11 in 10 more turns, then whip for 2. Almost-stable 20-turn cycle, gaining 1 food each time.

We had the same yields from the first 9 citizens at all times, and got 60 raw hammers from whipping over a period of 20 turns. The 'short cycle' is 1 :food: ahead, the 'long cycle' 10x the net yield of the filler tile - 10:commerce: for ocean, 10:hammers: for grassland forest, 20:commerce: for coast.
Nod bad, and often we will have better marginal tiles available.
 
No problems so far. I see no problem comparing cycles of different length, efficiency is about average yield.

Yeah, OK. I can see that. Repeating back the same idea - we can compare two cycles of different lengths by repeating them enough times that they line up (19 loops of my 17 turn cycle takes as long as 17 loops of your 19 turn cycle).

To avoid recalculating things endlessly, we can notice that if your cycle has the better total yield over 17*19 turns, then it also has the better yield per turn. So comparing your yield divided by nineteen to my yield divided by 17 gives the same result.

It appears that you thought that I thought (...) that the first 'grow to unhappiness' was a once-off prerequisite and we'd have 10-turn cycles thereafter. I didn't.

Neither did I, so something else is wrong.

I would indeed whip from 7 to 5, but I find it easier to define 'at stable cap, just the Granary reserve in the bin' as my starting/end point for all cases.

I like that - it's clear and tidy. Downside is that (per my calculations) that's an inefficient place for a small whip cycle to start/end. Integer math strikes again.


For an example, let's also make our job easier by bumping the happy cap to 10

OK - and just to make extra clear that we are all on the same page, that means the starting position that you are considering is

Food bin at 20/42.
Whip counter at 10 turns.
 
Math for a two pop whip:

The amount of food required to return to the initial condition of the food bin is:

17 + 2P

Where P is the population you are whipping from.

This is why Iranon likes to use 11->9 as his example (39 food, which is pretty close to 2F x 20 turns, or 4F x 10 turns), and I like to use 6->4 (29 food, which is pretty close to 3F x 10 turns).


The calculation (which assumes that you started with a full granary) goes something like this:

Initial Condition: 9 + P + X / ( 20 + 2P )

X is just some wiggle room for the case where we aren't at the grow point of the granary, it will cancel out in the end

Whip: 9 + P + X / ( 16 + 2P )

Two pop whip reduces the amount of food that we need to grow, but doesn't change the amount of food currently stored

Food to grow #1: 7 + P - X

Granary now at: 8 + P / (18 + 2P)

Food to grow #2: 10 + P

Granary now at: 9 + P / (20 + 2P)

Food back to start: + X

Granary now at: 9 + P + X / (20 + 2P)

Total Food: 7 + P - X + 10 + P + X = 17 + 2P.
 
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