Slots - The Logic

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I've been wondering this for a while..

First of all, I don't get why Cathedrals are THE "one slot" building for Art/Artefacts, I mean.. Golden Ages.. I don't think anybody uses THAT at all (well, often anyway) so why make the gap between having slots for Great Work so big between being able to built Museums and being able to built the Artists' Guild.. Hell, if Cathedrals are meant to be "special" then truthfully I always hear people saying they aren't that worthwhile to use for Cultural Victory..for whatever the reason... so what's the point?

Second of all, is it REALLY necessary for Opera House requiring Amphitheatre requiring Monuement? I mean, I get that Monuments lead to Amphitheatres, but seeing as they are no longer an upgraded version but just a similiar building type.. why not drop the requirement or just make Monument be required to built Amphitheatres, Opera Houses and Museums (or Museums requiring Amphitheatres and Opera House, and Brodcast Tower retaining the requirement of having Museum).

Am I a lunatic for seeing this this way? Or is there some logic? Also.. Shaka's Loincloth for President.

 

[troublmaker]

They're designed so you have to make choices and sacrifices in order to get stuff.

 

[adwcta]

You are right.

 

[Scott Jegg]

It's just a weak translation from the old culture model to the new. It kinda works, just not logically. The buildings to hold the works should surely be unlocked at the same point as the guilds that create them, but I feel they just didn't want to mess with the buildings that were already attached to certain techs, and added in the guilds at points they felt were most relevant.

In the end it's just a bit weird that way it's worked out, and you have to adapt your play to suit the mechanic.

 

[rattlejaw]

They actually are kinda worthwhile. Getting early art makes it easier to fill up the Louvre and Hermitage (which require different time periods and art trades), and in general there are more art-hungry theming bonuses than there are artists--they get difficult to fill profitably if all your artworks are condensed into a couple of eras, which tends to be what happens if you start running a guild when you get museums online or if you bank your artists until then. Cathedrals give you a place to put that art long before you'll have anything but your one palace slot.

There are of course also wonders (and for that matter museums) that reward you for having stuff from the same period, but they tend to be harder to get. Uffizi and Sistine are more difficult to snag on higher difficulties than the Hermitage (obviously) and Louvre.

That's not an incredibly powerful thing, and one can certainly debate whether it's more useful than extra happiness from Pagodas etc., but that's part of the fun. If you want to run an artists' guild early and get the most possible out of it, Cathedrals are a good way to go about that.

 

[FeiLing]

Before BNW this all made sense as these an amphitheater and opera house was useful (now they are completely useless!). Now I really really really hate that Museums need each previous tier building in every city.

 

[NukeAJS]

Who said cathedrals weren't good for cultural games?

When I play culturally, I usually get archeology ASAP. Then I make museums. Then I make 800 archeologists. Most of the time, I get so many artifacts, I don't have anywhere to put them in if I don't have cathedrals. Which means they get turned into useless landmarks (antiquity sites not in my territory), or the AI gets them which increases their tourism against me.

And as someone mentioned before, theming bonus can be quite difficult to get, especially if you get Uffizi+Louvre+Sistine. Those cathedrals hold those pieces of art until you get those wonders up.

Lastly, +2 culture is nice in the beginning of the game. Get 3-5 cathedrals with the slot filled, and you're making a decent amount of culture. Certainly enough to get an extra policy, maybe two.

But yeah, cathedrals being the only pre-museum building that holds art/artifacts is dumb. I don't have any suggestions on how to fix it though. Maybe move museums to navigation? They'd come a little sooner at least.

 

[Tachii]

First of all, I don't get why Cathedrals are THE "one slot" building for Art/Artefacts, I mean.. Golden Ages.. I don't think anybody uses THAT at all (well, often anyway) so why make the gap between having slots for Great Work so big between being able to built Museums and being able to built the Artists' Guild.. Hell, if Cathedrals are meant to be "special" then truthfully I always hear people saying they aren't that worthwhile to use for Cultural Victory..for whatever the reason... so what's the point?

I use Great Artists for Golden Ages. Not sure why it matters at all to make a Great Art if you aren't gunning for Culture Victory. The +2 culture/tourism is irrelevant to any other victory.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

well you need some culture/tourism, just like you need some military if you aren't going domination

 

[bonafide11]

What's wrong with using Great Artists for golden ages? Extra gold, production, and culture per turn can be a pretty big boost.

 

[Ulthwithian]

bonafide: Nothing wrong with it per se, but there's nothing wrong with making GWs either.

I mean, let's say you proc your first GA on a turn that you are making 100 Culture/turn. Purely from the Culture perspective, you get a 25% bonus to Culture output in a Golden Age, right? That means that the GA is worth (by default) 200 Culture. Without any bonus to Culture output, it will take the GW made by the Artist that turn 100 turns to generate more Culture. (Note many assumptions/simplifications on both sides.)

Basically, the heuristic 'make GWs sooner, use other abilities later' holds here. And the main draw of the Cathedral for this heuristic is that it guarantees your 2nd & later GWs will have homes.

 

[I_qua_I]

There really should be a universally available 1-slot great work building before museums. I often build the Sistine Chapel just to be able to finally use my great artists.

 

[Tachii]

well you need some culture/tourism, just like you need some military if you aren't going domination

You can get culture/tourism with musicians and writers.
Actually, toward the end game, I was just using Writers to get more culture instead of making a Great Work.

Tourism is kind of like religion in non-culture games. It's good to have but not nearly as necessary. There's probably some math involved for when the +2 culture bonus could out match a Golden Age or a Great Writer's culture boost, but it's all about getting policies earlier by those few turns rather than some overall output, imo.

 

[Aaron90495]

Agreed. I started spawning great artists last game, and since I hadn't started spawning many musicians, I had to put in 10-15 turns of production, if not more, to be able to use said artists.

 

[Winston]

The hermitage can hold 3 artworks which should be enough until archeology comes along. Perhaps another religious building could hold art too so that civs have a greater chance of picking up art slots?

 

[ahawk]

Just off hand, the number of slots for Great Artwork (artwork, nothing else) per building:

Palace: 1 slot
Cathedral: 1 slot
Parthenon: 1 slot
Sistine Chapel: 2 slots
Museum: 2 slots
Hermitage: 3 slots
Uffizi: 3 slots
Louvre: 4 slots

Thus, the number of non-wonder, non religious buildings that offer Great Artwork slots is 1: Museum (Hermitage is a national wonder, Palace is essentially a national wonder as well, so I'm not counting those despite the fact you are guaranteed to be able to have those slots if you so choose).

That alone means Cathedrals are at least somewhat useful, given enough faith to buy a good number by the time you need them.

Music has 2 buildings, and Writing has the Amphitheater occur very quickly. I agree a bit that Great Artists are a bit of a problem because they will either sit around costing maintenance, or you're going to burn them for Golden Ages because of the long wait. The way I work around this is usually that I just don't build or tech to the Artist Guild right away. Generally, I get the Writer's Guild going for quite a while before I go Music and Art.

 

[steveg700]

Just off hand, the number of slots for Great Artwork (artwork, nothing else) per building:

Palace: 1 slot
Cathedral: 1 slot
Parthenon: 1 slot
Sistine Chapel: 2 slots
Museum: 2 slots
Hermitage: 3 slots
Uffizi: 3 slots
Louvre: 4 slots

Thus, the number of non-wonder, non religious buildings that offer Great Artwork slots is 1: Museum (Hermitage is a national wonder, Palace is essentially a national wonder as well, so I'm not counting those despite the fact you are guaranteed to be able to have those slots if you so choose).

That alone means Cathedrals are at least somewhat useful, given enough faith to buy a good number by the time you need them.

Music has 2 buildings, and Writing has the Amphitheater occur very quickly. I agree a bit that Great Artists are a bit of a problem because they will either sit around costing maintenance, or you're going to burn them for Golden Ages because of the long wait. The way I work around this is usually that I just don't build or tech to the Artist Guild right away. Generally, I get the Writer's Guild going for quite a while before I go Music and Art.

The Parthenon can be discounted as a place to park great works, as it comes filled.

If you don't have cathedrals, the Palace is the only place to hang a painting until the Renaissance, and then you are competing for a couple of wonders. This is all intentional, of course.

 

[ahawk]

The Parthenon can be discounted as a place to park great works, as it comes filled.

If you don't have cathedrals, the Palace is the only place to hang a painting until the Renaissance, and then you are competing for a couple of wonders. This is all intentional, of course.

I still count Parthenon, because often I take the pre-filled work and move it for theming bonuses elsewhere. That, and it's a wonder with a slot, and that's all I was counting up

Otherwise, I agree with you though: the whole point is that you have to compete for (and win at least some of) the cultural wonders, namely Uffizi, Sistine Chapel, and Louvre, when it comes to Great Art slots.

 

[sonicandfffan]

The funny thing about great artist is that when I was playing as THE culture civ, Brazil, I made no great art at all, I filled all the great art slots with artifacts and used the artists to create carnivals.

Missing out on a few theming bonuses for world wonders is pretty minor compared to doubling your entire tourism output.

 

[Pythakoreas]

I honestly think there shouldn't be any Art slots in the Renaissance except for the Palace and the Sistine Chapel, because Great Artists should start Golden Ages as they did in real life.