SMAN's The World at War

[ofmiciv5]

Man, @ofmiciv5 - maybe VP SHOULD put you on their payroll....

I'm in the middle of testing the scenario - am having a blast, which delays testing, unfortunately... I'll probably have everything ready to publish (BETA) tomorrow. After that, I suppose it's time to look at my "Change Notes" document, currently up to three pages. Many, if not most, seem to focus on tech tree relationships. So, while I admire what you're doing from the VP side, it looks like I'll have to add a few more prereqs to the tree to limit the bee-lining.

I suppose after the WaW tech tree is "fixed" (for now) - I need to do some research on how to add these changes you're making - LUA code that senses when VP is enabled, then runs a special set of adjustments to the tech tree (can we call it TT for short?) so it will look something like what you have in the previous post. I've seen several mods that use this approach, so I'm hoping it will be relatively straightforward. Have had several players asking about VP. Would love to be able to make them play well together. I'm a firm believer it's costing me 1 star on my rating...

One thing we'll have to keep an eye on when it comes to "balancing" - there is that 128k beaker limit. I was playing around with that a lot in testing. The real problem is large maps, marathon speed, deity handicap. If you have too many techs that cost too much science, it can cause a weird overflow issue which means techs suddenly cost 1 game turn, even at end game. Any adjustments you're making in tieing the two TT's together will have to at least look at that a bit.

OK. The Great War just started. Am off to the trenches....

View attachment 508847 View attachment 508848 View attachment 508852

nahhh! like i've said before i'm not after it. all i want is to help create and play epic CIV5 games. i always do it for passion.

i will be condensing all my future posts on this post now, regarding this WIP VP compatibility for tWaW to refrain from accumulating more posts as i can just put it in spoiler via time stamp as title.

right now, i'm having a headache as to how to balance the TT as it overlaps/conflicts the era made from VP. rest assured, bee-lining science tech will NOT be an issue if we incorporate VP into tWaW.

20181116-0811 Proposed LBE, GWE TT
Any TT suggestions?

Spoiler :

 

[sman1975]

Glad to see so much progress. I think "most" of the TT changes in WAW will be adding a few more prereq techs - which looks similar to what you're doing to combine the mods' trees. It is looking quite good!

 

[MariusMagnus]

I'd love to see this compatible with VP (even if how I already play VP isn't exactly balanced...). You're doing the work of a god, my friend.

 

[ofmiciv5]

Tech tree fully compatible with VP. Still balance issues to work out next.

La Belle Epoque

Spoiler :

Great War

Spoiler :

World War 2

Spoiler :

Cold War

Spoiler :

Future Era

Spoiler :

Any thoughts?

 

[ofmiciv5]

Supplementary files for the pics above to work.

Overwrite files on the location;
For tWaW,
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\SMAN's 'The World at War' (v 1)\DATABASE\Technologies

For VP,
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Tech

Load sequence should be VP first then tWaW.

These merely serves as a working tech tree compatibility. No balance has yet been done.

 

[sman1975]

This is incredibly good work! Now, I need to figure out how to put it to work.

I may have to work with you on VP - I've never used it, so I don't know what all it does. I.e., what other issues in VP other than TT should we look at to help ensure "compatibility...?"

Next week's problem, I know, but still that's the next step.

Thanks for all this. Really good work!

 

[ofmiciv5]

This is incredibly good work! Now, I need to figure out how to put it to work.

I may have to work with you on VP - I've never used it, so I don't know what all it does. I.e., what other issues in VP other than TT should we look at to help ensure "compatibility...?"

Next week's problem, I know, but still that's the next step.

Thanks for all this. Really good work!

You're welcome.

Spoiler :

VP is literally like a drug if you have tried it just like JFDLC. Truly changes and level up your Civ5 experience. In my opinion, it is so balanced and tailored to any type of player

I'll take screenshots of VP so you can understand G's approach.

Compatibility issues:

Tech Tree.
Main culprit of compatibility. While we did a made the tech tree compatible, it was done on the terms of VP for tWaW and not tWaW for VP. It is significant because if we do want to make it for VP, the whole game changes.
- VP has its own standard in making TT as you can see on the pic.
- War heavy tech and units are strictly placed at the bottom as opposed by peace loving people at the top which also houses the best techs for building a great, popular, rich empire.

Spoiler :

Policies and Ideologies.
Hugggggggggeeeeee overhaul on it. Pretty much the ideal and dream of every civ players.

Spoiler :

Promotions.
Made a total rework on promotions that will conflicts yours. Yes, it will still work but you may have different intention and approach in it that AI will behave differently. Like Dreadnought promotions adding at tops maximum HP up to 150 and etc.

City States:
Gaining influence is made through sending diplomatic units to CS and NOT through gold. Quest are substantially better.

Spies:
Different mechanics and abilities.

World Congress:
3 resolutions can be passed and a numerous change in resolutions.

Vassals:
Annexation of defeated civs that may cause CTD to tWaW.

Units and buildings:
You will be forced to make strength, costs to mesh well with it. That also includes the upgrading path, resources need. Stacking units may cause an issue too.
Duplication of names, units and buildings.
Military capping. VP has its own way of capping units and not hard coded limitations.
Like this Air strike defense and how do you define range (range issues).

Spoiler :

VP events:
Ranging from typhoon struck on your city/empire, loses population and destroyed buildings to random pillaged tile events. Might cause CTD.

To sum it up, if you do want to make it very compatible with VP, you have no choice but to bend to it's gameplay. tWaW will end up like two mods that inserts new cool looking techs (like combination of EE and FW) and units (like LGUP).

And also, they change all of vanilla's UA, UU and UB. Absolutely a huge leap forward that will change how you will play.

will need to play tWaW with VP to get the feels. hopefully we don't encounter major problems and CTDs.

 

[sman1975]

From your description, it sounds like getting the TT compatible may be the tip of the iceberg with VP. From reading over your other description, though, I'm not seeing a lot of other areas that cause me great concern, however.

WAW was designed to introduce new content by adding things to existing in-game systems. So, if it loads first, then lets VP make all the many changes it does to those systems, hopefully, it will upgrade the WAW content at that time.

Well, that's my hope.... Am definitely looking forward to getting info about your testing experience with both mods!

 

[ofmiciv5]

From your description, it sounds like getting the TT compatible may be the tip of the iceberg with VP. From reading over your other description, though, I'm not seeing a lot of other areas that cause me great concern, however.

WAW was designed to introduce new content by adding things to existing in-game systems. So, if it loads first, then lets VP make all the many changes it does to those systems, hopefully, it will upgrade the WAW content at that time.

Well, that's my hope.... Am definitely looking forward to getting info about your testing experience with both mods!

Currenty reached Renaissance Era. So far so good.

Spoiler :

BANNNNNNNNNZZZZZZZZZAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIII !!!!!!

Playing tWaw with these significant mods and civs.

Spoiler :

Vox Populi 10-10 EUI (didn't updated to the latest beta as I don't see anything major changes)
MUCfVP (basically gives 2 more unique to each civ)
WE (gives another alternative to currently policy locked wonder)
UCS (city states that has it's own unique bonuses if allied)
JFD and Jan (Tojo, Hitler, Putin, Roosevelt) civs
and all UI mods and revisions.

Changes:

Spoiler :

1. The game starts with 2 spies and a free worker. (Prince [default diff])
2. Upon purchase, units can move immediately. On VP, will have to wait for the next turn to move.
3. On one tile island. The trained unit will not spawn on cities which there were garrisoned. I don't know if this is vanilla and tWaW or VP thing as I have been playing VP always. But VP will spawn that unit regardless.
4. Grouping same kind of promotions, great! Liked it!
5. Chateau for all doesn't make any sense. It should a unique improvement for a specific civ.
6. I do not know what to say about double stacking. Seems double edged. Insanely hard to invade but once you do get on the position, it will be a slaughter.

Pics

Spoiler :

edit:
seems like the promotion grouping is limited to common ones.

encountered a bug. war with china but the units are not highlighted.

Spoiler :

edit 2: major bug
OHHHH NO!!! stuck on an endless loop on turn 208 waiting for shoshone's turn to finish. waited for full ten minutes. though i could still the the tool tips and access other things such as diplomacy overview etc. there was a significant drop in fps during that time, i could see the animation like for trade route moving slowly. in short, the game i play now is unplayable my settings is always save every turn and make 2 copies of it.

edit 3: era bug
played a new game skipping directly to renaissance era. yes, if in war the unit highlight bug is still there. the combustion tech is on LBE but as soon as i researched it, the era changed to great war.

we may have connected the dots on tech tree but as you've said, only the tip of the iceberg. haha! waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more things left to be done here to have a decent compatibility.

edit 4: rework needed
Looks like I have to rework the tree to cater tWaW for VP instead of VP for tWaW. The tree will look more condensed and clean.

 

[ofmiciv5]

i was right all along....haha! this is great! we can fuse them.

Spoiler :

tWaW+EE+VP (+FW.... but tWaW has something like FW, won't be needed unless....)

EE will be absorbed by LBE but EE techs will be included, same format.

 

[sman1975]

You mean the lack of highlighting is for all units? Or a certain type of unit? I'm not 100% sure, but the error seems like it's in the UnitPanel UI. I'm sure VP (and/or EUI) changes this UI. I know that WAW does. Can you check the Lua.log file (or if you're running LiveTuner - check the LUA panel?

I'm wondering if this is some kind of load order issue. The best way to resolve that issue would be to put a Reference Association in the VP and EUI mods so that if any of them were enabled that WAW would load BEFORE all the others, and one of the EUI or VP's UnitPanel UI would load AFTER WAW's, so the conflict wouldn't happen. Since that's not possible, it would be up to players to ensure that they have newer copies of EUI and VP installed (after WAW), so the date/time stamp would be later.

Since that's even more impossible, it looks like I'd have to add logic to the WAW mod to sense if either EUI or VP were enabled, to not use its version of the UnitPanel UI.

I suspect there are several other similar "conflicts by duplicate features" errors that would have to be resolved that way. Or.... Just accept the two mods are too dissimilar to harmonize, not without major changes to either one. One of the reason WAW has the features it does and set up the way it is, is to "harmonize" several of the mods I liked to play, but adjusting the designs of those mods in such a way that they fit more cohesively together. Kind of a further evolution of my Omnibus mod. Tying to kludge it, contort it to play well with VP might be a huge step backwards in such evolution, introducing incoherencies that impact the immersive quality of the gaming experience.

I suppose it's inevitable when you have more than one mod making broad-scoped changes - someone has to give....

EDIT: man, what you've done with the tech tree is a minor (?) miracle! It will definitely "expand" the second half of the game!!! Still need to test against the 128K beaker limit issue - on a huge map/marathon/deity game, with tons of cities. Probably by starting in a latter Era, then auto play for about 500 turns. Then check the tech tree to see if there are any "1 Game Turn" costs for latter techs.

 

[ofmiciv5]

You mean the lack of highlighting is for all units? Or a certain type of unit? I'm not 100% sure, but the error seems like it's in the UnitPanel UI. I'm sure VP (and/or EUI) changes this UI. I know that WAW does. Can you check the Lua.log file (or if you're running LiveTuner - check the LUA panel?

I'm wondering if this is some kind of load order issue. The best way to resolve that issue would be to put a Reference Association in the VP and EUI mods so that if any of them were enabled that WAW would load BEFORE all the others, and one of the EUI or VP's UnitPanel UI would load AFTER WAW's, so the conflict wouldn't happen. Since that's not possible, it would be up to players to ensure that they have newer copies of EUI and VP installed (after WAW), so the date/time stamp would be later.

Since that's even more impossible, it looks like I'd have to add logic to the WAW mod to sense if either EUI or VP were enabled, to not use its version of the UnitPanel UI.

I suspect there are several other similar "conflicts by duplicate features" errors that would have to be resolved that way. Or.... Just accept the two mods are too dissimilar to harmonize, not without major changes to either one. One of the reason WAW has the features it does and set up the way it is, is to "harmonize" several of the mods I liked to play, but adjusting the designs of those mods in such a way that they fit more cohesively together. Kind of a further evolution of my Omnibus mod. Tying to kludge it, contort it to play well with VP might be a huge step backwards in such evolution, introducing incoherencies that impact the immersive quality of the gaming experience.

I suppose it's inevitable when you have more than one mod making broad-scoped changes - someone has to give....

EDIT: man, what you've done with the tech tree is a minor (?) miracle! It will definitely "expand" the second half of the game!!! Still need to test against the 128K beaker limit issue - on a huge map/marathon/deity game, with tons of cities. Probably by starting in a latter Era, then auto play for about 500 turns. Then check the tech tree to see if there are any "1 Game Turn" costs for latter techs.

Request

Spoiler :

Can I make a request on your next update on tWaW. Kindly add 1 SQL, 1 LUA and 1 XML file on a folder named 'Compatibility'? located on
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\SMAN's 'The World at War' (v 1)
and register those 3 files on the last sequence/load order of FILE and UPDATEDATABASE.
So that we can put all those changes and compatibility. Because as of now, I'm riding on the existing files and it is BAD way to code it out.

I have no idea about that 128k thing and usually play on standard maps. But I do play on modified accurate earth mod which is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY bigger than HUGE map.
I guess as of now, I'll just 'test sample' this on standard map, prince level, standard time, communitas.

Spoiler :

Yes, I do understand you that is why at first I tried to make it for tWaW but it will be incompatible with VP's rules, mechanics etc that will cause CTD and other problems. I don't know if this is right but can I ask your permission to modify tWaW for VP?. I mean, bringing tWaW to VP... which is tWaW for VP and not VP for tWaW. It will be absorbed into VP's gameplay, AI and mechanics. Besides, if I happen to make it, I will not post it anywhere but only here with your permission, otherwise for personal use only.

 

[sman1975]

Greetings - sorry about the delay getting back to you. Power went off at my house for about 5 hours today...

Am back online, fixing all the things that broke due to unexepcted shutdown. Fortunately, I save everything fairly often, so not much data was lost. Just getting my development environment set up exactly the way I like it takes a bit of time.

OK - so I'll also apologize for not following more closely on your previous posts. It's obvious to me you've put in a ton of quality work, so we have a nice foundation in place when it comes time to flesh this out.

I've been working almost exclusively on the WW1 scenario mod. It's "finished" but I'm running my last couple of tests right now for balance. It's looking pretty good, and performs well for BETA, so I'm anxious to get this one out the door to start collecting feedback. Am hoping that once it's out, I can take a closer look at all the TT boo-boos being pointed out by the testers, er, I mean players.... Hopefully, a few quick fixes and the tree's in a more logically consistent state.

At that point, it's probably time to dust your data off and see just how we start the ginourmous process of VP compatibility.

 

[ofmiciv5]

Finally finished the tree and 'balance' adjustments. Will need further permission from posting this here. Please take this post out if I'm out of line.

Spoiler :

SMAN's the World at War for Vox Populi compatibility

A poor man's attempt at trying to follow the philosophy of both tWaW and VP with some compromise on overall feels and balance.

Tech Tree pics

Spoiler :

Changes for both:
- Oil is now revealed on Replaceable Parts instead of Combustion.
- In addition to numerous tWaW techs, tech cost are subjected to VP .
- Expect 'wild' tech prereque.

Changes for tWaW users:
- Building costs, unit damage and costs are adjusted according to VP.
- Units tech prereque were relocated for balance.
- Tech trees were subjected to VP's tree alignment.
- Transparent aluminum is now revealed on Globalization instead of Nanotechnology.
- Spaceship parts standard prereque by VP except for required resources.
- Some building features were changed. (Removed some of the happiness and upped other bonuses as they looked underwhelming compared to VP)
- Rest of the notable changes, tWaW is subjected to VP (social policies and ideology)

Changes for VP users:
- Names of era's absorbed by tWaW.
- New promotions may or may not overlaps VP.
- New techs were inserted/added that looked the tree seemed condensed. No changes to current VP TT.
- Transparent aluminum requirement for spaceship parts.
- Victory condition imbalanced due to tWaW warmonger philosophy.

Balance issues:
- Due to massive additions of units, base combat values will have very minor difference and some make upgrading costly.
- Decent chance at all victory conditions.

For tWaW:
Unzip and overwrite files on this location
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\SMAN's 'The World at War' (v 1)\DATABASE

For VP:
Unzip and overwrite files on this locations
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Tech

C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Units

(resourcereveal file)
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Terrain

Clear the cache, enable VP first then tWaW.

 

[MariusMagnus]

I'll be sure to try this if I find the time. Got a little sidetracked with a personal project of mine, but regardless, well done!

 

[ofmiciv5]

with your final revisions etc, hopefully you can finally make an official compatibility version.

Spoiler :

so far so good. no roaches and all went harmoniously.
just reached GWE now.

with all these mods running,

tWaWfVP-EUI
MUCfVP, DR, WE, G-AR, I-A, UCS
VPPI, UI-WP, UI-SXiMO, UI-ICSVfVP, UI-TOfVP, UI-CSLfVP, UI-RSfVP
JFD and Jan (Tojo, Hitler, Putin, Roosevelt)

 

[sman1975]

WOW! All I can say, is Wow, @ofmiciv5!

P.s. My scenario mod is finally completed, tested, and completed again. Am putting together the "release package" now to put on Steam. Am hoping to have it all release in mid-day tomorrow at the latest.

After that, I'll start making changes to the WAW base mod, based on the feedback I have so far. It's a lot, but so far, most of it is a database change here and there - and those are quick-turnaround, very low risk to schedule. I'm hoping they will only take a day or so to implement.

This will leave the WAW tech tree "stabilized" and at that point, I think we'll be ready to look at how to put what you've posted into something workable in the mod. Will really be relying on your help to get this working, as I really don't know how VP works, looks, or interacts with other mods.

 

[ofmiciv5]

WOW! All I can say, is Wow, @ofmiciv5!

P.s. My scenario mod is finally completed, tested, and completed again. Am putting together the "release package" now to put on Steam. Am hoping to have it all release in mid-day tomorrow at the latest.

After that, I'll start making changes to the WAW base mod, based on the feedback I have so far. It's a lot, but so far, most of it is a database change here and there - and those are quick-turnaround, very low risk to schedule. I'm hoping they will only take a day or so to implement.

This will leave the WAW tech tree "stabilized" and at that point, I think we'll be ready to look at how to put what you've posted into something workable in the mod. Will really be relying on your help to get this working, as I really don't know how VP works, looks, or interacts with other mods.

that scenario mod will satisfy those sadistic lust for trouble. will be looking forward to that as soon as I have played test this compatibility fully.

Spoiler :

Playing on 22 civs, 27 cs, standard sized map, standard time.

Just loaded the save game at turn 410, year 1990
VP has 81 or 83 total techs I think. With tWaW additional 49+(6).
I have researched 66 techs compared to the leader of 78. 78 would be like completing all techs up to GWE and 2 WW2 techs.

In my opinion I think the current pace is JUST RIGHT with the current tech costs. Units will be more useful and not get obsolete fast enough. Game feels not fast, yet not slow too.

The only reason for concern here is how balance victory condition.
At this pace,

Winning via TIME/SCORE will be the first threat. Reaching 500 turns will be reached between GWE and CWE.
Second, via diplomatic votes. Inca was on the verge on winning, only the United Nation proposal is preventing him from obtaining the required votes. Currently with 38 votes out of 52, it reached as high as 44. But yet, winning by votes (Global Hegemony) will be triggered upon reaching CWE.
Third while cultural victory is a big threat from starting LBE, VP put several conditions before you can win that way, therefore it is not a problem.
Winning via domination will depend on you play but still way below the ranks.
Science victory will be the hardest to achieve here.

That being said, how to deal with it?
Sure we can just ignore when we reach 500 turns and continue the game to enjoy the slaughter. To balance the game in favor for all in achieving victory conditions, we have to cut the tech costs at half when reaching LBE. That way, all be winnable on whatever victory condition you wanted at the expense of faster paced game that leads to unit getting obsolete faster which is NOT the intention of tWaW.

NOW NOW NOW.... this is now the real conflict goes. tWaW's philosophy encourages war and enjoying all these wonderful new units while VP is balancing on all aspects. So where do we go from here? The easiest answer would be to follow tWaW. Ditched that victory condition imbalance, ignore the 500 turns and wreck havoc as you would like.

edit:

Spoiler :

WTF!!..... defeated by inca at turn 437, year 2017 via cultural victory! was too busy killing russia. haha!



will just ignore this and continue playing.

 

[ofmiciv5]

Now on turn 500. NO ROACHES encountered!

Spoiler :

I've managed to researched 92 techs compared to the leader with 100 but still on CWE. No spacehip parts has been made, no winners by votes, though i lost via cultural due to negligence, never should have lost in the first place, regardless I continued the game.

Now my thoughts,

to balance out victory condition (standard time, on any map size)
- set max turns to 700
- spaceship parts will be same as VP
- set trigger for global hemogeny upon reaching FWE
- let cultural victory condition stay the same
- domination stay as it is

my mind way blown into the buildings that give strategic resources. haha!
i think we should nerf it by half. like instead of giving 4, make it 2, same as 2 to 1.

i believe the tech, unit and building costs are reasonable.
the game feels not fast, not slow either. making, buying, upgrading units feels rewarding.

 

[sman1975]

Quick update - sorry I've been offline for the past couple of days - have been putting in double shifts trying to finally nail the WW1 scenario to the ground. I think I've just about made all the changes/additions/deletions I planned on (even added most of V2's plan into the current version).

And I have to tell ya, it's beautiful...

I firmly believe it captures the epic scope of the war in Europe, and provides a deeply immersive playing experience - with the custom units, naming conventions, national promotions, etc. It's a pretty rich tapestry of artwork that really pulls you into the game.

I worked very hard on getting the AI to put up a much better fight. The various civs steer their forces to meet national objectives in a somewhat rational manner, looking like they are actually being maneuvered by a real player. I also added a large amount of free units spawning throughout the game, so the AI will put up an even better fight.

All-in-all, I think it's about the best mod I've put together. I only wished I'd started on a smaller map, so perhaps it would be a bit more stable/shorter turn waiting times, but it is what it is....

Anyways, I'm finishing up on the Steam screenshots/slides, adding captions to the slides so they make more sense. The narrative is written, and the website more or less finished. Still want to run through a quick test game in the morning to make sure it's all working, and hope to publish soon thereafter. I know I've said that before, but this time, I really, really, really mean it...

Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about y'all - and the spectacular work you're doing. I'm hoping that if the scenario goes out tomorrow, I can get to the "fix" list for the WAW mod. I really want to nail down the tech tree most of all - as it directly impacts what you're trying to do with the VP-friendly version of WAW (do we need a project name for this???).

The list of recommended changes is a bit lengthy, but none of the changes look to be to difficult/time consuming to implement. I'm hoping this means I can finish the "v2" of the mod sometime mid-week next. Which should then free up time to work on the VP version - hopefully with a "stable" tech tree.

Well, that's the plan anyways... Appreciate all the hard work, and patience in keeping this project moving forward.