SMAN's The World at War

[ofmiciv5]

Quick update - sorry I've been offline for the past couple of days - have been putting in double shifts trying to finally nail the WW1 scenario to the ground. I think I've just about made all the changes/additions/deletions I planned on (even added most of V2's plan into the current version).

And I have to tell ya, it's beautiful...

I firmly believe it captures the epic scope of the war in Europe, and provides a deeply immersive playing experience - with the custom units, naming conventions, national promotions, etc. It's a pretty rich tapestry of artwork that really pulls you into the game.

I worked very hard on getting the AI to put up a much better fight. The various civs steer their forces to meet national objectives in a somewhat rational manner, looking like they are actually being maneuvered by a real player. I also added a large amount of free units spawning throughout the game, so the AI will put up an even better fight.

All-in-all, I think it's about the best mod I've put together. I only wished I'd started on a smaller map, so perhaps it would be a bit more stable/shorter turn waiting times, but it is what it is....

Anyways, I'm finishing up on the Steam screenshots/slides, adding captions to the slides so they make more sense. The narrative is written, and the website more or less finished. Still want to run through a quick test game in the morning to make sure it's all working, and hope to publish soon thereafter. I know I've said that before, but this time, I really, really, really mean it...

Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about y'all - and the spectacular work you're doing. I'm hoping that if the scenario goes out tomorrow, I can get to the "fix" list for the WAW mod. I really want to nail down the tech tree most of all - as it directly impacts what you're trying to do with the VP-friendly version of WAW (do we need a project name for this???).

The list of recommended changes is a bit lengthy, but none of the changes look to be to difficult/time consuming to implement. I'm hoping this means I can finish the "v2" of the mod sometime mid-week next. Which should then free up time to work on the VP version - hopefully with a "stable" tech tree.

Well, that's the plan anyways... Appreciate all the hard work, and patience in keeping this project moving forward.

i suggest it's better not to change the name, keep it as it is. we can simply add "for VP" or "compatible with VP". anyways, i'm glad to be of help.

edit: making AI smarter is the hardest part in my opinion. keep it up!

edit 2: now that i've been exposed to modding, i think all you need to consider in making a compatibility here are aligning tech trees and balancing costs. let twaw be twaw.

Spoiler :

this may be off topic, i finally finished adding FW (those you left behind) and Mtafm into tWaW+VP. this will be the last mod i'll add as putting more mods isn't healthy. too much of something is bad.

 

[sman1975]

OK - I've completed the "fixes" for the main Mod - calling it V2 for now. Here is a list of the changes made. Of particular interest is the section on the bottom, detailing the changes to the tech tree - mostly adding new prereqs to prevent some beelining.

Will give you a chance to look them over, while I do some research to figure out the syntax required to seamlessly integrate the VP fix. My goal is to only have one mod that "accommodates" other mods if they are enabled (VP first, EE next?) but ignores them if they're not.

Goal is to avoid having to maintain a separate mod/baseline. If that is required, then fine. But if not, it will be a much better solution.


Summary of Changes (V2)

General:

- Added the x32 sized Icon files
- Removed the flag in the Transparent Aluminum Civilopedia entry so it no longer suggests the Resource can be found in Hill tiles.
- Changed the text key for the "Bribe" promotion for land units that now says, "Capture Chance if Defeated: XX%"
- Changed the AI settings for two keys: OPINION_WEIGHT_MINOR_CIV_NONE and OPINION_WEIGHT_WONDER_NONE. Set the values to 0. Previously, if you weren't competing with an AI Civ for a City States' favor and hadn't built wonders that they wanted, it would grant you favor with the AI Civ, but the message that it showed said the opposite was true.
- Changed the Chateaux Terrain Improvement's Help key to reflect that any Civ can now build it, not just the French Civilization.
- Changed the TXT_KEY_REVEALS_RESOURCE_ON_MAP text key to reflect that some latter-Era Resources are not found on the map, but must be manufactured. This is to help reduce confusion about Transparent Aluminum, which is one of these Resources. I also expect other, similar late-game Resources to be added in the future. Since this key is created/used by the game engine, it isn't possible to change it dynamically without replacing the entire Tech Tree UI – which is like using a grenade to take out a fly…


Buildings:

- Fixed the duplicate Deep Mine building. The GW building is now called the Industrial Mine, as was originally intended
- Restored the requirement for Constabularies in all cities before the High Court national wonder could be built.


Units:

- Scouts & Shoshone Pathfinders upgrade to Lancers.
- Changed Lancers to upgrade to Cavalry. Cavalry now upgrades to the Armored Car.
- Changed the upgrade path for the Cruiser (WW2 naval ranged) from the Missile Cruiser to the Heavy Battleship.
- Modified the Ranch so it produces food without requiring nearby Cow or Sheep Resources.
- Changed the Prereq tech for Fleet Carriers to Materials Science, so they become available as soon as the normal Carrier unit becomes obsolete
- Mechanized Infantry now upgrades to Powerarmor Infantry
- Bazookas now upgrade to Mobile Infantry (until I can add a better unit alternative)
- Fixed the Combat Strength of the Robot Infantry unit, which was incorrect before. It is now 140, instead of 110
- Removed obsolete techs for certain units, so it would be possible to build at least some units if your civ is low on late-game Resources (Aluminum , Oil, Uranium, etc.): Artillery, Bazooka, Infantry
- Changed Howitzer obsolete tech from Mechanization to Combined Arms.
- Changed the prereq Tech for Imperial Rifleman to Dynamite instead of Topography, so it becomes available sooner. Also moved the prereq Tech for the War College National Wonder to Dynamite. These units receive the Charge, Discipline, and Shock Promotions when built. Normal Rifleman units now upgrade to Great War Infantry.
- Changed some names in the Unit Namer script to remove unprintable characters.
- Changed the prereq Building for the Nuclear Research Lab from the Freight Depot to the Research Lab.
- Changed the prereq Tech for the Advanced Warfare Facility from Superconductors (Future War Era) to Nuclear Fusion (Cold War Era).
- Changed the name of the 'ICBM' to the 'Superheavy ICBM' – to move it later in concept, where it actually resides on the Tech Tree
- Adjusted the cost of several ships to make them more balanced: Torpedo Boat Destroyer is now 250 (vice 300), Destroyer 275 (vice), Flotilla Destroyer 300 (vice 400), Corvette 325 (vice 375), and Heavy Destroyer 400 (vice 450).
- Removed the City Siege Promotion from WW2 and earlier Era artillery units. Added the Accuracy 1 Promotion to the Field Gun (BE Era), and the Accuracy 1 & 2 Promotions to Great War and World War II Era Arty Units (Heavy Field Gun, Howitzer, Field Howitzer, Heavy Field Howitzer, and the normal game Artillery). Artillery Units will now have a much better punch against troops in the open.
- German Landsknecht Units now obsolete at Rifling, and upgrade to Line Infantry Units.
- Changed the prereq Tech on the Missile Destroyer from Globalization to Nanotechnology (the latter Tech provided nothing, just an empty box).


Tech & Tech Tree Changes

- Added the Manufacturing prereq to Railroads, so that Light Cruisers could not be researched before Dreadnoughts.
- Added the Steam Power prereq to Telephony, so that the Torpedo Gunboat could not be researched before the Ironclad.
- Added Evolutionary Thought as a prereq to Electricity to slow down beelining
- Added the Motion Pictures prereq to Electronics, so that the Diesel Submarine could not be researched before the Submarine.
- Flight is now a prereq Tech for Motorized Logistics.
- Motorized Logistics is now the prereq Tech for Ballistics and Combustion.
- Assembly Line is now a prereq Tech for Ballistics
- Added the Radar prereq to Modeling and Simulations, so that the Mk II fighter could not be researched before the Mk I Fighter.
- Added the Television prereq to Mobile Tactics, so that Mobile Infantry could not be researched before Mechanized Infantry.
- Changed prereq Tech to "reveal" Transparent Aluminum from Nanotechnology to Cold Fusion. As the Resource can only be created by the TransAlu Mill (available at Cold Fusion), it makes no sense to associate the Resource with an earlier Tech.


EDIT: Slight delay. I thought I have fixed the CTD in Strategic View, but I only checked that in early testing. Somehow, one of the latter changes re-introduced this irritating little bug... I'm trying to retrace my steps and isolate what happened, but so far, no luck. Hate this crap. It's what turns a 2 hour mod fix into a 20 hour tail-chasing exercise...

 

[ofmiciv5]

OK - I've completed the "fixes" for the main Mod - calling it V2 for now. Here is a list of the changes made. Of particular interest is the section on the bottom, detailing the changes to the tech tree - mostly adding new prereqs to prevent some beelining.

Will give you a chance to look them over, while I do some research to figure out the syntax required to seamlessly integrate the VP fix. My goal is to only have one mod that "accommodates" other mods if they are enabled (VP first, EE next?) but ignores them if they're not.

Goal is to avoid having to maintain a separate mod/baseline. If that is required, then fine. But if not, it will be a much better solution.


Summary of Changes (V2)

General:

- Added the x32 sized Icon files
- Removed the flag in the Transparent Aluminum Civilopedia entry so it no longer suggests the Resource can be found in Hill tiles.
- Changed the text key for the "Bribe" promotion for land units that now says, "Capture Chance if Defeated: XX%"
- Changed the AI settings for two keys: OPINION_WEIGHT_MINOR_CIV_NONE and OPINION_WEIGHT_WONDER_NONE. Set the values to 0. Previously, if you weren't competing with an AI Civ for a City States' favor and hadn't built wonders that they wanted, it would grant you favor with the AI Civ, but the message that it showed said the opposite was true.
- Changed the Chateaux Terrain Improvement's Help key to reflect that any Civ can now build it, not just the French Civilization.
- Changed the TXT_KEY_REVEALS_RESOURCE_ON_MAP text key to reflect that some latter-Era Resources are not found on the map, but must be manufactured. This is to help reduce confusion about Transparent Aluminum, which is one of these Resources. I also expect other, similar late-game Resources to be added in the future. Since this key is created/used by the game engine, it isn't possible to change it dynamically without replacing the entire Tech Tree UI – which is like using a grenade to take out a fly…


Buildings:

- Fixed the duplicate Deep Mine building. The GW building is now called the Industrial Mine, as was originally intended
- Restored the requirement for Constabularies in all cities before the High Court national wonder could be built.


Units:

- Scouts & Shoshone Pathfinders upgrade to Lancers.
- Changed Lancers to upgrade to Cavalry. Cavalry now upgrades to the Armored Car.
- Changed the upgrade path for the Cruiser (WW2 naval ranged) from the Missile Cruiser to the Heavy Battleship.
- Modified the Ranch so it produces food without requiring nearby Cow or Sheep Resources.
- Changed the Prereq tech for Fleet Carriers to Materials Science, so they become available as soon as the normal Carrier unit becomes obsolete
- Mechanized Infantry now upgrades to Powerarmor Infantry
- Bazookas now upgrade to Mobile Infantry (until I can add a better unit alternative)
- Fixed the Combat Strength of the Robot Infantry unit, which was incorrect before. It is now 140, instead of 110
- Removed obsolete techs for certain units, so it would be possible to build at least some units if your civ is low on late-game Resources (Aluminum , Oil, Uranium, etc.): Artillery, Bazooka, Infantry
- Changed Howitzer obsolete tech from Mechanization to Combined Arms.
- Changed the prereq Tech for Imperial Rifleman to Dynamite instead of Topography, so it becomes available sooner. Also moved the prereq Tech for the War College National Wonder to Dynamite. These units receive the Charge, Discipline, and Shock Promotions when built. Normal Rifleman units now upgrade to Great War Infantry.
- Changed some names in the Unit Namer script to remove unprintable characters.
- Changed the prereq Building for the Nuclear Research Lab from the Freight Depot to the Research Lab.
- Changed the prereq Tech for the Advanced Warfare Facility from Superconductors (Future War Era) to Nuclear Fusion (Cold War Era).
- Changed the name of the 'ICBM' to the 'Superheavy ICBM' – to move it later in concept, where it actually resides on the Tech Tree
- Adjusted the cost of several ships to make them more balanced: Torpedo Boat Destroyer is now 250 (vice 300), Destroyer 275 (vice), Flotilla Destroyer 300 (vice 400), Corvette 325 (vice 375), and Heavy Destroyer 400 (vice 450).
- Removed the City Siege Promotion from WW2 and earlier Era artillery units. Added the Accuracy 1 Promotion to the Field Gun (BE Era), and the Accuracy 1 & 2 Promotions to Great War and World War II Era Arty Units (Heavy Field Gun, Howitzer, Field Howitzer, Heavy Field Howitzer, and the normal game Artillery). Artillery Units will now have a much better punch against troops in the open.
- German Landsknecht Units now obsolete at Rifling, and upgrade to Line Infantry Units.
- Changed the prereq Tech on the Missile Destroyer from Globalization to Nanotechnology (the latter Tech provided nothing, just an empty box).


Tech & Tech Tree Changes

- Added the Manufacturing prereq to Railroads, so that Light Cruisers could not be researched before Dreadnoughts.
- Added the Steam Power prereq to Telephony, so that the Torpedo Gunboat could not be researched before the Ironclad.
- Added Evolutionary Thought as a prereq to Electricity to slow down beelining
- Added the Motion Pictures prereq to Electronics, so that the Diesel Submarine could not be researched before the Submarine.
- Flight is now a prereq Tech for Motorized Logistics.
- Motorized Logistics is now the prereq Tech for Ballistics and Combustion.
- Assembly Line is now a prereq Tech for Ballistics
- Added the Radar prereq to Modeling and Simulations, so that the Mk II fighter could not be researched before the Mk I Fighter.
- Added the Television prereq to Mobile Tactics, so that Mobile Infantry could not be researched before Mechanized Infantry.
- Changed prereq Tech to "reveal" Transparent Aluminum from Nanotechnology to Cold Fusion. As the Resource can only be created by the TransAlu Mill (available at Cold Fusion), it makes no sense to associate the Resource with an earlier Tech.


EDIT: Slight delay. I thought I have fixed the CTD in Strategic View, but I only checked that in early testing. Somehow, one of the latter changes re-introduced this irritating little bug... I'm trying to retrace my steps and isolate what happened, but so far, no luck. Hate this crap. It's what turns a 2 hour mod fix into a 20 hour tail-chasing exercise...

Yes, it is possible for tWaW and VP to work together. All you need to do is re-align the tree and update the balance costs. While I did 'hard coded' the changes, it can be easily made into an SQL and perhaps use an installer type like VP does to be sure to 'force' those mods to work together. I'm fairly confident it is possible because of the numerous trial and error I made wherein VP is thick headed into imposing his ways among other and managed a workaround.

I think I will stop here for tWaW before I'll infest your humble intention. I have become Orochimaru now and wanted more.

Spoiler :

Lately I have been way over my head. Literally disrespecting developers of FW and Mtafm (and soon EE) as I made massive changes that totally rewrite their mod to accommodate and act as 'springboard' into making EE+FW+Mtafm possible for tWaW+VP.

While leftover FW non redundant buildings, units and wonders were all relocated according to tWaW for compatibility purposes, I used only about 9 FW techs and put others out of the loop and filling out the holes and put my desired changes, while Mtafm was forced on what I think it should be and using 3 unique strategic resources for 3 affinities.

While I've done 'pirating' FW and Mtafm to work together with tWaW+VP, I'm setting my sights into EE next as I am play testing this finished, tWaW+VP+(FW+Mtafm) now. Will complete the game in 2 days from turn 1 ancient to unlocking and using all units, a complete full test not using IGE.

Having a compatibility with EE+VP on tWaW is such a headache. Yes, I did managed to connect the trees yet I found it conflicts with tWaW as it 'borrows' EE style and totally abandoned on making a compatibility. I suggest, if you don't want to totally make a hassle of making another base of tWaW, ditch EE in favor VP. Let tWaW keep it's identity, let tWaW be tWaW, like you've said, you're going backwards if doing so and I TOTALLY AGREE!

EE+FW is basically tWaW in my opinion and it doesn't make any sense making a compatibility of them. Unless you want to approach like what I'm doing now, forcing them to work into 1.

The way this goes, I'll be going further beyond what is 'ethical' and will go to lengths as far as absorbing JFDLC too. Was looking at the codes and I did manage somehow to make it work, JFDLC(PiT) as of yet.

As would have been an original intention of making tWaW compatible with VP only....... mutated into something else. It wouldn't be far-fetched for FW+EE+JFDLC absorb to tWaW+VP as base core, while make other mods fully compatible.

To sum up,
tWaW and VP only. don't hassle yourself into making compatibility for PE, EE and FW or any other era changing mods. In that way, you can preserve the intention, philosophy and vision of your mod intact.

 

[sman1975]

I have become Orochimaru now and wanted more.

Is this as bad as it sounds?????

Of course, I'm only asking from a very selfish perspective....

Seriously, I started reviewing your files, particularly from posts #25 & #34. It looks like all the data is there - I just need a way to test for VP being loaded, and then make the DB changes required. Have found a few examples of how to do this from my mods library. From a risk standpoint, this part of the mod doesn't worry me very much.

Also, I think if I set up a "Reference" for this mod using VP - this means that VP is optional for this mod, but if they are both enabled, this mod will load last (a good thing).

OTOH, the part that has me more than a bit terrified is I don't have VP installed, haven't used it, so I'm not confident in my ability to test it.

I guess I'll have to break down and install VP just so I can do the basic-est of testing (Database.log, etc.), and take it from there. There are links all over the place, so can you let me know where the absolute latest version is posted?

I'm looking at this link, but am not 100% certain this is the correct/latest version:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/community-patch-how-to-install.528034/



I think I could have a first draft version done by the weekend, and for the meantime, I'll keep the VP-compliant version on a separate baseline - in case it needs to be scrapped later for whatever reason. I don't plan on changing the basic tWaW mod for a while, so this is not a problem.

I cannot thank you enough for some herculean efforts on this!

 

[MariusMagnus]

As ofmciv5 said, updating Units and Buildings, but only when VP is enabled, can easily be done with SQL. CBP has a table called 'COMMUNITY' (if you download VP, it can be found in C:\Users\User\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\CommunityOptions.sql) that allows players to enable/disable certain portions of balance changes to their liking. In other words, it's all modular, so you can just use EXISTS on this table to force your changes only when need be. Here's an example of a change I made to a building meant for BNW, but wouldn't fit in cost-wise with VP:

UPDATE Buildings
    SET Cost = '1000'
    WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PN_ROLLERCOASTER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type = 'COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value = 1 );

I've never worked with the tech tree, but I'm assuming you can do something similar to move techs around to where they need to be.

Regarding the changes:
I actually liked being able to train Torpedo Gunboats before Ironclads, you made them both seem unique enough that they each had their own uses (Torpedos for hunting subs and melee combat, Iclads for patrolling coasts and taking cities), so I never saw any problem with that. I can understand being against tech beelining (even if I do it myself ), so I guess it's for the best.

I'll be interested in seeing the WWI/II siege units in action now. Thinking about it, it was ridiculously easy to take cities with them, especially since you can stack units.

I didn't see this listed in your changes, and I also haven't updated yet, but in my current version of WaW the Hoover Dam only requires an electric gird in the city it's being built in, rather than an electric grid in every city like its description suggests. Is this still the case?



Heavy Battleships are unsinkable by lesser fleets!

 

[ofmiciv5]

Is this as bad as it sounds?????

Of course, I'm only asking from a very selfish perspective....

Seriously, I started reviewing your files, particularly from posts #25 & #34. It looks like all the data is there - I just need a way to test for VP being loaded, and then make the DB changes required. Have found a few examples of how to do this from my mods library. From a risk standpoint, this part of the mod doesn't worry me very much.

Also, I think if I set up a "Reference" for this mod using VP - this means that VP is optional for this mod, but if they are both enabled, this mod will load last (a good thing).

OTOH, the part that has me more than a bit terrified is I don't have VP installed, haven't used it, so I'm not confident in my ability to test it.

I guess I'll have to break down and install VP just so I can do the basic-est of testing (Database.log, etc.), and take it from there. There are links all over the place, so can you let me know where the absolute latest version is posted?

I'm looking at this link, but am not 100% certain this is the correct/latest version:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/community-patch-how-to-install.528034/



I think I could have a first draft version done by the weekend, and for the meantime, I'll keep the VP-compliant version on a separate baseline - in case it needs to be scrapped later for whatever reason. I don't plan on changing the basic tWaW mod for a while, so this is not a problem.

I cannot thank you enough for some herculean efforts on this!

Yes, that's the one. Use the automatic installer. It has a file of Vox Populi ((11-21-1) exe.
If you do happen to use the EUI version of VP, take note that some files are saved (UI_bc1 folder) on
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization V\Assets\DLC. You need to remove that if you dont want to use VP(EUI).

Play only VP first, (1-6) for you to understand the changes it made, from trees, policies, to game mechanics.

Then after having familiarity of VP, overwrite this file.

Overwrite Techchanges file,
C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Tech

Load VP first then tWaW. It serves as an example of tech tree alignment only.
I won't second guess your balance and how you approach it.

Orochimaru because I wanted more.... I wanted more mods to work together.
When I was doing it, a phrase comes into my mind,
'A mod that ends all mod'
Literally meant as having all favorite/popular mods working into 1 like twaw+VP+JFDLC along with others.
Wouldn't it be great to play those great mods together?

Again, I really felt grateful to Gazebo. It was really a blessing in disguise. If he hadn't ignored my request on congested top panel, I wouldn't be forced into modding to change that top panel and would not have enjoyed the game to the fullest because as of now, I am not limited to only use VP as core but also got to play with tWaW, FW and Mtafm all together.... and soon with EE and JFDLC.

As ofmciv5 said, updating Units and Buildings, but only when VP is enabled, can easily be done with SQL. CBP has a table called 'COMMUNITY' (if you download VP, it can be found in C:\Users\User\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\CommunityOptions.sql) that allows players to enable/disable certain portions of balance changes to their liking. In other words, it's all modular, so you can just use EXISTS on this table to force your changes only when need be. Here's an example of a change I made to a building meant for BNW, but wouldn't fit in cost-wise with VP:

UPDATE Buildings
    SET Cost = '1000'
    WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PN_ROLLERCOASTER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type = 'COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value = 1 );

I've never worked with the tech tree, but I'm assuming you can do something similar to move techs around to where they need to be.

Regarding the changes:
I actually liked being able to train Torpedo Gunboats before Ironclads, you made them both seem unique enough that they each had their own uses (Torpedos for hunting subs and melee combat, Iclads for patrolling coasts and taking cities), so I never saw any problem with that. I can understand being against tech beelining (even if I do it myself ), so I guess it's for the best.

I'll be interested in seeing the WWI/II siege units in action now. Thinking about it, it was ridiculously easy to take cities with them, especially since you can stack units.

I didn't see this listed in your changes, and I also haven't updated yet, but in my current version of WaW the Hoover Dam only requires an electric gird in the city it's being built in, rather than an electric grid in every city like its description suggests. Is this still the case?



Heavy Battleships are unsinkable by lesser fleets!

Yah, double stacking is ridiculous when you are in position. Nevertheless, it was fun, for a change.
More like..... 'a tWaW thing'. Would like to associate double stacking to tWaW as diseases for JFDLC. hahaha!

 

[sman1975]

Cool. Appreciate all the information - it is quite helpful.

My plan is to install VP today, then once I'm sure it's working - create a new mod that has just the tech tree in it. Will save a lot of time during development.

I plan on adding a single "VP compatibility" file - about the last thing to execute in the tWaW mod. Inside the tWaW mod there will be a "Reference" to VP - which makes VP optional to the mod, but ensures VP is loaded before tWaW if it is enabled.

So - by the time the "VP compatibility file" executes, all the DB changes VP and tWaW makes will have already been completed, and this last file will simply make the DB adjustments needed to make them all play well together.

At least that's my current plan...

And if this works, EE is next...


Quick questions:

@MariusMagnus - when you say the COMMUNITY table allows enabling/disabling - I'm barely literate in SQL, but it looks like the statement is checking the COMMUNITY table for a value, and making the change if it finds this value? And the COMMUNITY table is created by VP, no? So, if that table exists, then VP must be enabled, no?

So - I would need a separate statement in the Compatibility file like this for every tech entry that needs changing - including both VP and tWaW?

@ofmiciv5 : What do I do about the EUI? Is there anything you're working on that is dependent on it being loaded/unloaded? Can I safely ignore it for this version?

Do you play with all 6 of the VP mods enabled? Is that the best development environment? Is one of these 6 "mandatory" to enable, e.g. (1) Community Patch?

If all the final adjustments to the tech databases are made in the VP Compatibility File - after VP is loaded (and made all its DB changes) and most of tWaW is loaded (and made all of its DB changes) - I don't understand why I need to delete the ....\Balance Changes\Tech folder?


On the changes:
- I originally like the beelining in the original design, as it allowed "specialization" in a way the normal TT doesn't. If you were a sea power, you would take one path, air-power another, and land power another. You saw this a lot in WW2 history, how some Civs just did certain things better than others in these different domains. But I can also see players' points about the problem. It just feels more balanced this way, even if it loses some of that shade of historicity.

- The artillery changes were caused by the testing in the scenario. Played a ton of test games, and the arty never really made a strong battlefield impact like it did historically. In WW2, ~70% of casualties were caused by it. WW1? Not much further behind this. So, when I came back to this mod after the scenario was published, I experimented with various promotion mixes, and this one just seemed more like it. Now, I have to put this back into the scenario....

- Hoover Dam is still broken, but at least you need Electric Grids in every city for the Central Terminal.....

- Didn't test Hvy Battleships. How do the Fleet Subs do against them? May have to look at this more closely, but I do believe they should be very hard to sink until Cold War aviation comes on board. Am putting both these points into the V3 checklist right now.



EDIT: Basic mod is set up - am adding in the VP TT changes now.

 

[MariusMagnus]

when you say the COMMUNITY table allows enabling/disabling - what is being changed? Specific buildings or techs? Or something more general?

It's a bit of both. For instance, there's an option for enabling/disabling unit changes across the board and another for enabling/disabling upgraded settlers.

I haven't fought against any Heavy Battleships yet, only used them. Yeah, one alone can crush just about anything below them on the tech tree. I have yet to fight a fleet equal in power to mine (by Civ V AI standards, I mean one that outnumbers and out-techs mine), and I am interested in facing off against them, so I'll see about starting off in a later era and making the AI extremely aggressive, when I find the time.

 

[sman1975]

Cool. I'm looking more closely at the recommendations you've made - and have finally started to drill down on the recommendations on page 2 of this forum. The mini-mod is working fine, and it is responding well to the UPDATE commands.

Although, I'm using the 'COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE == 1' to test if VP is enabled. It works, but I have no idea how the internals work. Will this value always be 1 whenever any sub-mod of VP is enabled?


On the ships - the Heavy Battleships were supposed to be almost impossible to sink without subs and air attacks. One-on-one surface ship fights would take several turns to resolve. A regrettable thing about Civ 5. Always wished they had a "mini-game" to resolve combat - one that would keep units fighting within the same turn until one or the other unit was destroyed or retreated to a adjacent tile.

Still, if you do have any good fights between those beasts I'm very curious how that works out.

Thanks again for the sql help. It is most appreciated!

 

[sman1975]

One thing I'm seeing in the files - there are a few statements in there that aren't conditional, i.e. based on something like the 'COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE == 1' test we've discussed earlier.

The problem is, since there's no procedural logic available inside sql, I believe I'll need to add these tests to all statements that don't have it. Otherwise, the changes will be made whether VP is loaded or not.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the INSERT - SET - WHERE syntax, as well.

I think...

Also - I have all 6 VP mods installed/enabled, but I'm not seeing all the techs in the pics on post #34 (in the second spoiler box). Am I missing something?


EDIT: It looks like I'm just going to have to UPDATE the existing prereq techs, and not use the DELETE/INSERT approach. Takes a bit longer to set up, but should be more reliable.

 

[MariusMagnus]

Just a warning, be careful about using COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE to test if VP is active. It's possible for players to just use (1) Community Patch without (2) Community Balance Overhaul, the latter of which has most of the changes for VP. It will always be 1 if the Community Patch is enabled, unless the player sets it to 0, of course.

You may want to refer to the CommunityOptions file in (2) Community Balance Overhaul to base your unit/building balance updates on.

 

[sman1975]

Thanks - that was just the info I was looking for!

@ofmiciv5 used the 'Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_UNITS' AND Value= 1' test in his files, so I was just sticking with that. Even if I was manipulating the Technologies table.

 

[sman1975]

All the techs are in the right location, and I've been playing with the prereqs in Belle Epoque - here's what it looks like at the moment:



The pipes are not as accurate as I'd like them, as I've made some minor tweaks to there aren't too many "gaps" between the techs. Realism suffering for aesthetics....

The reason why is that I can only re-route existing prereq techs at the moment. So, if a tech only has a single prereq tech, I can only make one pipe draw to the left. Archaeology and Immunizations is a good example. It's not broken, but any means, but there are a few empty spaces floating around.

I'll do some more research to see if I can figure out how to use the INSERT-SELECT-WHERE syntax to add the prereq techs I'd like to have in the game, but aren't in the original two mods. If I can't figure it out, this might have to be "good enough...."

Need to take a break for a bit - errands....

Will have the tech tree done at least by tomorrow. At that point, I'll start looking at the Units, I guess. I'm looking over the files in the Units zip file from post #34 - where are these numbers coming from? I'm assuming it has something to do with balancing, but almost all of the units are from pre-industrial era - not really relevant to the tWaW.

If the data is already in the VP mod, I don't think i need to recreate it in the COMPATIBILITY folder. The only thing this folder needs to do is make sure whatever changes tWaW makes are harmonized with the data in VP. Most of the Tech-1, For tWaW-1, and For VP zips looked like it came from the VP mod, so I haven't included it (yet) into the current compatibility script. It simplified the task greatly (by assuming that everything VP wanted changed in the DB was already changed before tWaW even loaded.

The things I need to be most concerned about are what tWaW changes that VP really won't like.


I see a lot of changes in the DATABASE folder - what I'm planning on doing with them is to convert the changes into sql and add it to the bottom of the script.

 

[sman1975]

OK - here is the TT, with the minimal amount of changes I can make:



It looks (more or less) OK, but there are some technological "dead ends" and we can't have that...

So - I'll try to figure out how to do those conditional INSERTs tomorrow. If that doesn't work, I'll make a change to the main tWaW mod so there will be at least 2 prereq techs for every tech on the tree. This will allow me to change those techs that only have 1 prereq and use it to eliminate the dead ends.

 

[sman1975]

And, we're back....

Here is the picture of the "conditional INSERT" test:



The bottom line is there was no prereq for Public Transport to Fertilizer in the picture on the left. There is on the right. So - I can add prereqs through SQL. And when I tested the statement without VP enabled, the prereq was NOT added.

Here is the syntax:

INSERT INTO Technology_PrereqTechs (TechType, PrereqTech)
    SELECT 'TECH_SMAN_PUBLIC_TRANSPORT', 'TECH_FERTILIZER'
    WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_UNITS' AND Value= 1 );

OK, so now I'm going to add a few more prereqs - to fill in the gaps on the pix in post #54. I'll have that done this morning, which will leave the TT in a good-enough condition.

After that, I plan on looking at the various files in the DATABASE archive - to see what the changes are compared to the normal mod. I'm assuming the changes @ofmiciv5 made there were for balance/game play?

My real problem is I'm not sure what is required to do after the TT is "fixed" for both mods.

 

[sman1975]

The updated TT. I still have a few things to do with it (mostly cleaning up the file), but for the most part, this is done:



Will be looking over the DATABASE files to try and figure out what's still required.

Two basic tasks I'm looking at:
1. Getting in the changes required to make both mods work properly
2. Making the balance adjustments to get tWaW in line with VP numbers

The difficulty is how to perform these two tasks with all the files in the DATABASE (and possibly other) folders.


EDIT: I put the updated Buildings costs from the DATABASE folder. There weren't any changes to the cost of the new National Wonders, making some of them cheaper than a normal building in the Era. I changed the cost, using '3 x Era Normal Building Cost' as the base value for each of those. If there should be a different formula, please let me know.

Also - is there anything else in the Buildings changes besides cost? I didn't see anything, but don't want to miss it if it's there.


Have started updating Units - looks like costs and strengths changed. But I'm not sure about the Faith costs for land units. Normally, it's twice the price (in hammers), but from what I've seen so far, it's actually half the cost of the new hammer/production price. Is that intentional?


EDIT 2: Have finished added all the Units - I think I caught all the changes.

At this point, the techs, buildings, and units have been added to the compatibility script. Looking through the rest of the DATABASE folder to see what I've missed.


I'm thinking about releasing a "VP-compatible" version separately here on Civfanatics, and forward anyone wanting to test it here. Once we have a "good enough" version, I'll merge the compatibility script to the "normal" tWaW mod - and only have 1 baseline on both Steam and here.

 

[sman1975]

Am testing the "VP compatible version" of tWaW. So far, it looks like it's working fine - I mean, all the units/buildings/techs are there - in the right order and costing what they should - based on all the "balancing" data I could pull from the various zip files.

I'm not sure what else I should be looking for. Is it time to publish on Civfanatics?


EDIT: On the FaithCost question - it looks like VP uses a set cost per Era. It also expands the Faith purchase of units beyond land unit to sea and air as well. I just used the Era cost and believe that should be good enough.


Current version of the TT:

 

[sman1975]

If y'all get a chance, please let me know if you think the time is right to publish the V0 version of the VP-compatible mod. I'm not sure what else is required. Thanks!

 

[ofmiciv5]

Sorry for the late reply. Was away on the net but working heavily for JFDLC.

Some people use EUI, some people don't like it or use their own version. Some use only the (1) Community Patch, some use the (2) CBO and up (6). CBO has all the significant changes on VP. So when you say it is compatible with VP, it is pretty much CBO included. Now as to EUI or Non-EUI users, it doesn't concern much except for players who used to play EUI will have a shock because of 'non highlight units on war' on tWaW. Nevertheless, all those changes are from (2) CBO folder, that balance folder (tree alignments, units relocation, resource reveal).

If you used the same exact tree as I did then it would be great because, using that tree, I managed to make it compatible with JFDLC too and made the features of JFDLC's (Health, Power, Crime and Development) implemented fully on buildings! Just finished it this morning and was planning on a play test tonight.

That being said, you can use JFDLC + VP + tWaW with full compatibility.



I'm using and loading this in order,

Spoiler :

JFDLC (1) - Gazebo's Community Patch
(2) Community Balance Overhaul
(3) City-State Diplomacy Mod for CBP
(4) C4DF - CBP
(5) More Luxuries - CBO Edition (5-14b)
JFDLC (7) - JFD's Cultural Diversity (Core)
JFDLC (8) - JFD's Rise to Power
JFDLC (9) - JFD's Events Compendium
JFDLC (11) - DonQuiche's IGE for JFDLC
JFDLC (12) - Krzyzk's Quick Turns
SMAN's 'The World at War'

Spoiler :

Future Worlds
CJ's "More than a Future" Mod
HNR

Just ignore these, not tWaW related.

If you plan on working for EE for tWaW+VP, you can.... but I suggest you save yourself the hassle by making them 'obligated' to use JFDLC instead. Makers of EE are of the same team from JFDLC and they have already made a compatibility of it. So, tWaW + VP + JFDLC.

 

[ofmiciv5]

Overwrite the files on the corresponding locations if you have enabled the mods VP and JFDLC.

C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\JFDLC\JFDLC (8) - JFD's Rise to Power\JFDLC Core\Cities in Development\Crimes\Core

C:\Users\????\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\JFDLC\JFDLC (8) - JFD's Rise to Power\JFDLC Core\Cities in Development\Power\Core

tWaW buildings are now fully implemented on one of JFDLC's features. See power and crime.

Spoiler :

That also includes some FW buildings.

If y'all get a chance, please let me know if you think the time is right to publish the V0 version of the VP-compatible mod. I'm not sure what else is required. Thanks!

For twaw zip files I've sent before, those balance files are outdated but pretty much solved 95% of the issues. You can publish anytime as you like. Make the changes upon the feed backs. At least, it is playable with VP now.

What do I do about the EUI? Is there anything you're working on that is dependent on it being loaded/unloaded? Can I safely ignore it for this version?

Do you play with all 6 of the VP mods enabled? Is that the best development environment? Is one of these 6 "mandatory" to enable, e.g. (1) Community Patch?

Just ignore the EUI and install the Non-EUI version instead. Pretty much others can be ignored. All that matters is CP and CBO. If you use CBO, you have to use CP. CP is stand alone. CBO contains all the balance and overhauling of the game.

If I play VP, I enabled 1-6, using the EUI version. But just as like Magnus said, some use only the 1 and have other mods as 'core'.