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SMAN's The World at War

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Scenarios' started by sman1975, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    Glad you're back! You can't imagine how much uncertainty I was experiencing about what to do with this mod.... :crazyeye:

    I think you're idea about "skipping" EE makes sense logically, but I've had a bunch of players asking about EE compatibility in my mods, but only 1 ever asked about JFDLC (ever). If the developers are no longer "supporting" EE, it makes sense to only work with the newer version.

    But, TBH, I was hoping the compatibility script for EE would consist primarily of a sql statement that added a couple of numbers to the GridX values in the latter techs, and maybe adjust a few prereqs. Maybe a bit of a balancing, then off to the races....

    Of course, I don't know EE well, although I experimented with it a few years ago.

    But, not to put the cart before the horse... After reading your posts, I think I'd like to put the VP compatible tWaW mod on Civfanatics, and not advertise it very much (lots of "under development" caveats) - until you have a chance to kick the tires a bit.

    I mean, I tested it for a few hours - ran through a couple of Quick games on a medium map, starting in the Renaissance Era. Played just fine for me (with all 6 VP mods loaded) - I didn't notice any difference, actually. But, I'm no expert on the extensive work you did with the balancing aspect - which is more important than simply getting the new mod to simply not crash.

    I've included the compatible mods .MODINFO file, and the folder with the compat scripts (although only the 'VoxPopuli.sql' file is used) for review. I think I caught most of your changes, but it's easy to miss things buried in the various files.

    When we add the JFDLC changes, that script will load after the VP scripts (going from more popular to less popular) and use 2 tests in all its changes - testing first for itself (JFDLC) to see if it's loaded, and then for (VP) to see if it's loaded. Unless the changes are smallish/touching different areas than VP, the adding of JFDLC is going to be even more complex. A 3rd mod beyond that would be even moreso.

    Will post the new mod in a bit. Thanks again for all the help!


    EDIT: It's posted:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/reso...-vox-populi-compatible-version-testing.27162/


    I don't plan on telling anyone else, but a few players who are interested might stumble across the mod. Since it seems kinda stable, this doesn't bother me too much.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  2. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    Well, you can make EE because of popular demand. It's your call. Having your mod flexible and accommodating means more popularity and followers. Who wouldn't like to have the mods you have been playing be compatible with tWaW? :) :love:

    EE is a finished product, it doesn't need to be updated because I believe it is a solid mod. There is also an awesome EE compatibility with VP mod made, I was even using it before. Just playing the devils advocate here, it just doesn't make sense to me (for you) to put compatibility version of it because tWaW pretty much covered what we 'needed' drastically on mid game. :thumbsup:

    Yes, I do agree. You don't need to advertise VP compatibility. Let those hard core VP users will find their way on that post if they do so. Having compatibility is like a side dish. :) The main course here is tWaW, not VP. :smoke:

    Spoiler :

    not twaw related.........
    Spoiler :

    Honestly, I do like JFDLC by light years away compared to VP. It was my first love, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before I met the older name of VP. But the only thing that heavily discourages me is I always encountered CTD on it around 250-300 turns, made the game unplayable even by save and IGE therefore I have never played a complete game of JFDLC. It is just so frustrating. With that, I was forced back to VP and along the way fall in love with it because aside from it's being a solid mod, I never encountered CTD and it is always stable. But now I'm into modding, I can revisit it again and try to kill the bugs OR just settle for CiD and ExCE (both features of JFDLC) which I had been working these past days prior to jumping to the main JFDLC the other day.

    I did a play test with tWaW+VP+JFDLC and I think I'm starting to see some signs of 'fps drops' on animations when processing turns. I bet when I reach later era's it would be a problem. So, I think I'll just leave the progress with JFDLC for now and back to my original plan of only using it's CiD and ExCE.



    edit: looking and playing that compat version now. will give feed backs in a while. :borg:
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  3. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    aw..... haha! CTD. haha!
    was just checking the trees and encountered ctd. i looked at the sql and you did relocate the vp techs which is not necessary because they are already in place. :crazyeye:

    edit: awww... we definitely have to dig deeper into this sql. just by clicking the trees to see where the beeline goes makes it ctd.

    hang on~ :shifty::mischief::scan:
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  4. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    Odd, it never crashed during testing - something that surprised me, TBH.
     
  5. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    im debugging the problem. i guess it has something to do with the corporation tech. what i did before was ignore as it is not a default tech from civ5 but from vp exclusive.

    edit: so far whenever i click that reserve banking tech, it ctd

    edit2:
    this sql gives me headaches UPDATE Technology_PrereqTechs SET PrereqTech
    would rather use INSERT INTO Technology_PrereqTechs (TechType, PrereqTech)
    :)

    it is really that pesky reserve banking causes all this ctd

    edit3:
    i think i know why i'm confused on all of this. we have totally different approach on the tree.

    what i did was let the vp tree stay intact and fill the gaps with twaw.
    set the grid x and y, and prereque on twaw techs only.
    therefore, no need to worry about vp

    while you did rewrite the whole twaw and vp.
    set the grid x and y, and prereque on both
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  6. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    Yes - in order to keep everything working within the same mod (tWaW) while using the compatibility script to make an adjustments needed by VP (but only in case VP was enabled) - I had to use the conditional INSERTS/UPDATES. There's no way to substitute the other files without manually deleting/copying files outside of Civ V. So, I had to look though all the files you game me, then compare them with the existing mod files, then when finding a delta between the two, translate that into sql and put into the compat file. It took a lot of time, but it's really the only way to properly do this for almost all players.

    There are probably more than a few of the changes in your files that I missed when looking through them. One of the reasons I didn't want to release this too widely at first.

    I'm still not sure how clicking on the Reserve Banking tech in the TT causes a crash. The tech shows prereqs of Electricity, Railroad, and Applied Physics.

    Reserve Banking is a prereq to Corporations and Electricity.

    Whoops! I think I found the problem.... :hammer2:

    The prereqs for Reserve Banking should be Telegraph, Railroad, and Applied Physics... Should probably add the Assembly Line as needing Reserve Banking as well - just to keep things consistent.


    Shall I post an updated version with these 2 changes?
     
  7. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    no, don't. i'll send you my revision first before you decide.
    while you did found the culprit. i did manage to make the tree stable using

    INSERT INTO Technology_PrereqTechs (TechType, PrereqTech)

    and not

    UPDATE Technology_PrereqTechs SET PrereqTech

    because there is no need for that when you already used the

    UPDATE Technologies SET GridX=10, GridY=1 WHERE

    edit:
    i was barking at the wrong tree.
    what i did was make the whole MISCTECHCHANGES file into all comment.
    wait let me see if this works out....
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  8. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    naaah... i give up. :crazyeye: your approach is better. mine directly involves on manipulating other files which is not applicable to where you are heading with a good compatibility script. as long as it doesn't encounter CTD, that version is good to go.
     
  9. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    By "good to go" - do you mean I should (after the small banking fix) - let other players know on Steam there is a version ready for their testing?
     
  10. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    kindly post here the fix (SQL file) so that we can do the last checking of techs for ctd.
    Or you can do it yourself, just click (beeline) each techs, from LBE to FWE to see if it works. that was the first thing i did earlier. If it's okey, then it's good to go. :scan:

    although i have suggestions for more balance etc, it wouldn't be right for me to say or do. i'm thankful that you even consider the tree i proposed. til then, it would be best to listen and gather the community's feedback first. :thumbsup:
     
  11. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    Building/Testing fix right now....

    Since you think it's running ok, I'll post the updated version then inform players on Steam.

    And I continue to value any/all suggestions you have on this. It's been invaluable in getting this thing ready to fly.


    BTW - this temp mod already has 5 downloads....


    EDIT: Lots of other issues - I'm currently checking each tech. Will take a bit longer...


    EDIT #2: Even more issues.... The tree works just fine, but about 4 of the techs are giving me issues. They simply won't implement the SQL commands given to them. I've re-re-rechecked syntax and everything is formatted correctly, but for some reason, the pre-reqs just won't load into the database. Need a couple of more hours to beat this into submission, but unfortunately, I'm out of time for today. I'll post the new/improved version tomorrow morning.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  12. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    if that corporation tech is giving you a headache, just/try ignore it and dont make any sql and grid x and y.
    it think some will be tricky because it has nested prepreque, here and there.:crazyeye:
    dont forget that the only difference our tree is that you relocate flight above replacement parts and move 1 Y up the advance flight. just in case this may help.
     
  13. XxPun12h3rxX

    XxPun12h3rxX Chieftain

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    The first thing I want to say is that I love this mod, and I was super hyped to see the VP patch posted.
    That being said, there are a few things that I want to point out (this is a beta I think please dont bite my head off im just playtesting sorry):
    1. A few of the buildings have weird production values, like the war college and naval academy have several times the amount of required production that other wonders have, though all other buildings are fine.
    2. The upgrade tree is a bit broken, as some units promote into strange units. (For example, spearmen promote into musketmen and im not sure when crossbowmen promote but I know it isnt to musketmen). Also some of the other upgrades have weird paths, which is fine for the most part. My two cents is to remove a few of the traditional VP units (really just cruisers and some later game ones), and take another quick look at the promotion paths cause i think some are left over from vanilla.
    3. The reformation belief that allows you to buy late game land units doesnt seem to work at all in my game, but that might be the belief itself? Idk I dont normally use it ill have to check.
    4. Would it be possible to combine a few techs to make the tech tree a little smaller? You dont have to its just a bit daunting for new players. But then again its a really good idea to slow down modern warfare, which is something the community has always been asking for.
    5. Finally, i think theres an issue with happiness. Im playing as rome rn and the second i entered Le Belle Epoque my unhappiness exploded. I was getting 52 from illiteracy alone, and to put that in perspective the max that id ever gotten (outside of one of Gs broken betas) was 12. Its an easy fix though, but it might take some time cause a lot of numbers have to be tweaked.
    Anyways, the mod is handling very smoothly so far, and Im looking forward to the later ages. Keep it up!
     
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  14. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    @XxPun12h3rxX - we knew the first version of this would be rough - it's why we released it here and not yet on Steam.

    Getting the mods "compatible" means two basic things. First is just making sure it doesn't crash when playing. Not easy, but fairly straightforward.

    The second task is the hardest one: balancing out the "numbers" - making sure the new content "agrees" with each other (Civ 5 to VP to tWaW). And this is the most time consuming part.

    The things you've mentioned is EXACTLY the kinds of things we're looking for! We're hoping that a few play throughs by testers who know VP well can find all of these errors, and then get the mod ready for wider release.

    Appreciate it - let us know what else you're finding!
     
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  15. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    as i was the one who made the initial balance, this was my thought on that,

    1. i believe the balance made was on buildings to be the same as vp (twaw buildings are 3-4x cheaper than VPs) Wonders were not touched if my memory serves me right and was the same as twaw wonder costs.
    2. upgrade tree is a both independent and fusion of twaw and vp. twaw units have their own tree that may or may not connect to vp units.
    3. you can buy units by faith if it has a corresponding faith purchase value and not needed a reformation belief. when i tried it, you only need to have a religion on that city were you are buying.
    4. this was made with the intention of using/putting all twaw techs, units and buildings. (no one is left behind)
    5. happiness issue is not twaw problem, it is from vp. may i know your vp version? because version before 10-10 have this happiness issues that fluctuates as much as 100 unhappiness. lots of unhappiness mood swings. :eek:

    it is great to hear from you because we can finally rally for SMAN on what he has to do. :D

    edit:
    anyway, will play the game tonight and check all those. SMAN, get ready for a long lists of.... :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  16. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    OK. The TT has been finally beaten into submission. Had to step back and completely re-work how the prereqs were defined, but at least now it is 100% correct, and looks like it's supposed to.

    Now, to the other issues to work:

    1. The point about Wonders pricing is a good one. I'm not sure I understand how VP is adjusting the price of Wonders. In the normal game, the Louvre (Industrial/BE Era wonder) costs 750 hammers originally. The tWaW Wonders (War College and Naval Academy) cost the same.

    When you add VP to the mix, the Louvre price increase to 1250 hammers. From what I've seen in DATABASE folder, the average VP price for buildings of the Industrial/BE Era are about 1000 hammers.

    So, the average building cost went up dramatically, but the Wonders price not so much. I think when I changed Wonder prices in the compatibility script for tWaW wonders, I simply tripled the average building price of the normal building price in the Era, where VP less than doubled it. I didn't change the price of any normal game building or wonder

    Begs the question - what should the difference be between normal Era buildings and Era Wonders? Normal buildings in the Industrial Era are about 300-360 hammers, where wonders are bout 750 (roughly x2). But VP triples building prices, while doubling wonders (normal building ~1000, wonder ~1250).

    Am I missing something here? Seems like VP Wonders should price at about ~2000 or more - so VP's are too low, and tWaW's are too high, currently. Perhaps this is why @XxPun12h3rxX felt there was a problem.

    2. I haven't really looked at the units the VP adds. But, tWaW units have their own structure where they become upgrades to normal units, then sometimes upgrade back into normal units. Other than that, they don't really change much in the normal game's upgrade system. I did make a few "standard" mods, but many, many mods make similar upgrades (i.e. Pikemen upgrade into Musketmen, but Spearmen upgrade to Pikeman.). I also adjusted some of the horse units into something more logical and align better with tWaW units.

    3. I think @ofmiciv5 is right - got to have a majority religion in a city to purchase units with Faith. (I hope that's all it is!)

    4. I don't think I want to change the TT composition very much. I really like how it's structured in tWaW, and I'm trying to ensure that I only maintain one version of the mod in the future. This means I'll adjust placement, prereq techs, etc. for the VP compatible version, but I don't want to have to qualitatively adjust content for VP. It's just too much work.

    5. I've seen similar explosions of unhappiness on Era change before. Perhaps this is intentional. When the Industrial Revolution hit in earnest, there was a massive amount of civil unrest that governments of the day were ill-equipped to manage. But in game terms, I'm a bit surprised that many players would complain about unhappiness being a real issue, as most of the games I've played with this mod, Happiness tends to explode mid-to-late game and quickly becomes a non-issue.

    I've even thought now and then about nerfing happiness, but haven't gotten very serious about it yet. If you have any suggestions about specific changes to specific buildings, etc. let me know.


    So, based on this, I posted the new version of the mod. At least that version won't be crashing when you play it. Well, not crash based on the TT...

    Appreciate all the suggestions. It all contributes to making VP version more stable, balanced, and hopefully more fun to play.

    Uh.... Ok.... Seriously, just give me a list of what needs changing, and I'll throw the SQL together. I'm actually getting a little better at it! :)


    EDIT: And oh, BTW, I think I'll post the link on the STEAM page to the VP version - and ask for testers. I think it might be a good time for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  17. XxPun12h3rxX

    XxPun12h3rxX Chieftain

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    Could you set the wonder cost (at least for the national colleges) for that of a world wonder? I didn't get far enough to look at the other new world wonders but I think that might work, if it isn't set already.
    Most problems involving units don't really matter, and I think the faith purchase problems is another mod from what I'm seening.
    The interesting thing is happiness. I am playing with the most recent patch, but I think ive figured out the problem:
    1. The reason unhappiness explodes is because VP happiness is obscenely complicated to the point where G hates himself for making it. Its divided into yields and needs. Yields are the tangible bonuses that buildings give, while needs are thresholds where, if you don't have enough of a certain yield in a city, the city sharts producing unhappiness.
    2. I think the problem is that no building as of yet modifies needs, while the game processes a large amount of turns passing. This means that in counting turns, the player would be about in the modern era, yet by techs has hardly built any "industrial" buildings. This causes unhappiness to explode because the needs threshold keeps rising with nothing to check it (note most VP late game buildings have large need reductions and small yields, while early game buildings have small need reductions and large yields.) Its just a small issue that blows out of proportion (literally) that G had to deal with for years. I don't think itll take you that long to fix, itll just be a long debate as to how.
    I'm still going to see what all I can playtest, but everythings holding up fine so far. (Also are the trenches from your WW1 scenario going to be in this mod? Cause that would be pretty cool.)
     
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  18. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    1. i have no issue about that unhappiness issue in vp because it is realistic and can be done. people are just whinning and reluctant in changing their ways on how they play. i personally do like the happiness G is going to. i dont want a game with 50+ happiness, it isn't just realistic to be happy always from start to finish.

    2. would like to try on the 11-21-3 version if i could encounter these problems because when i tried it with VP 10-10, i played from turn 1 to 500+ (no IGE or other cheat mods) and didn't encounter happiness and religious issues, no roaches either. totally fine and stable.

    there are alot of things that wasn't implemented yet, not just the modifiers you are talking about but also the air strike def. actually, there are ALOT that has to be done actually. for now, this compatibility version is mainly if we encounter ctd. i guess that's the most important part, you play the game from start to finish. balance will follow if there isn't any problem, SMAN can work it out later.
     
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  19. sman1975

    sman1975 King

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    Interesting discussion. But please remember - I am quite hesitant to adjust much of the VP settings to "fix" whatever issue might be floating out there with VP. My intent is not to change VP in any way, merely to change tWaW mod so it fits seamlessly into the VP milieu.

    I would measure success in this area when a seasoned VP player uses both mods together and sees very little difference between this experience and playing a game where only VP is loaded.

    This just seems right to me (especially since I'm such a noob when it comes to all things VP).

    So, any and all (well almost all) suggestions should be made that help me alter tWaW to play correctly with VP, and not try to tweak VP settings in almost any area, unless that area actually breaks the game (balance- or crash-wise) left unaltered.


    That was part of my stream-of-consciousness comment earlier. From what I'm seeing, VP leaves World Wonders costing 25% more than normal buildings of that Era. This really seems wrong to me, and if it's true - one of the things I might be tempted to change in tWaW compatibility script, even it if violates the premise discussed at the top of this post. The change would be made in the interest of balance.

    For example, if we collectively decide the "right" costs for Wonders should be x2.5 the normal Era building price, I'd feel comfortable in changing not only tWaW Wonders, but also normal game Wonders at the same time - for the sake of consistency. Right now, Wonder pricing seems to be all over the place, and that's one of the things this testing is supposed to eliminate.
     
  20. ofmiciv5

    ofmiciv5 Warlord

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    will play a full game first with this revision and recent vp version. we will know in 2 days time. :)

    1. i guess it would be best for the standard cost on buildings and wonders like vp.
    2-3. we will know that because i will play it now
    4. same. as much as we do want to have a solid compatibility, the main course is not VP but tWaW.
    5. yes, it is intentional. some players whine about it but for me, its okey. they just whine and not adapt to the changes.

    edit:
    in fact, i find tWaW happiness buildings OP. lots of buildings that give happiness. therefore it shouldn't be an issue.
     
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