So I wuz wondering...

[Perfect909]

I've read the the basic strategy guide and Sulla's walkthrough; thanks to whoever it was that turned me on to those. I should read them again, I know, but I've got some questions. Please be patient with me, I'm a lot stupider than I look. I'm playing at warlord level, and games end when I win by domination or get bored. I guess I'm ready for play at the Noble level, but there are some things I don't get yet. If there's a FAQ for this stuff, please point me to it.

1. When I check demographics, I'm usually 1st in every category except life expectancy. There I'm in the middle or near the bottom. What factors determine life expectancy, and what is it about my playing style that makes me do so poorly there?

2. If research amount is determined by income, does it make more sense to build a market/grocer/bank FIRST, and a library/university second? The former increases your income AND research, the latter only research. Do I have that right, or am I confused?

3. What determines the trade routes for a city? Can I have direct effect on that? Indirect effect?

4. Is it just me, or is the charisma trait a really big disappointment?

5. The strategy guide says don't put workers on automatic, cause they build too many farms and not enough cottages. Sulla says don't put workers on automatic cause they build too many cottages and not enough farms. So, what's that about? Is it just a matter of style? I am still not that much better than the AI at developing tiles, so I make the first few decisions for a city, then turn them to auto.

6. I know Sulla is some kind of professional gamer/super player, but still I find reading his walk through strains my credulity. He says stuff like "I wanted to build the UN so I picked a city and and two turns later there it was" or "Isabella got on my nerves, so I spent three turns building a huge army and wiped her out." I'm exaggerating, I know, but do you get what I mean? Are the kind production numbers he talks about common, or is that just an indication of how good he is at this? If those numbers are possible, what are the key factors to getting there?

7. Why does the symbol for Carthage look like the door to the ladies room?

8. If you want to win by culture, do you have to plan that from the start? I've had cities with over 20,000 culture, and if I put technology to 0 and culture to 100, I might have gotten one city over 50,000, but three? How is that done?

9. How do you win by conquest? If you conquer cities and keep them, you win by domination. If you conquer cities and don't keep them, the other civs will fill in faster than you can say boo.

Any helpful hints will be appreciated.

Perfect

 

[Aseon]

Well, I can answer number two for you.

Research and income are determined by how much commerce you have. Commerce is then divided into research, culture and gold based on the percentages you've set up.

Libraries, universities and such multiply you reasearch.

Markets, banks and such multiply only your gold, not commerce. Therefore, they do not have a direct impact on the amount of research you get.

They can have an indirect effect in that they may provide you with enough income that you can increase the percentage of commerce you are spending on research.

 

[Ecofarm]

1. I think whipping and starving affects this, but I'm guessing. Since the AI almost never whips (even with an army about to take that 5 population city), you should generally be at the bottom of this.

2. Commerce can be turned into gold OR research, depending on your research slider. Libraries allow you to run specialists (2 scientists max for library), but you need a good food source to support this.

3. Trade routes are are determined by roads between capitals, or coastal cities when you have researched sailing. I've heard that open borders increases trade (might even be required), but I do not know the details of this (I'm a warmonger, I rarely have good relations with more than 1 civ). Domestic trade routes are only worth 1 gold per route. Foreign trade routes are worth 2-10, averaging about 5. The number of trade routes starts at 1, and is increased by buildings and wonders. Each city can only trade with 1 other, and the routes are determined by gold value, with the big value cities usually trade routing each other, then smaller ones, etc. The value of a city's trade route is determined by population, GNP, and other things. For example, if your capital has 2 trade routes available, it will probably give it's route to a foreign capital, and take a trade route from the foreign capital and the 2nd best foreign trade route. Your 2nd best city will take the next best foreign route, until your cities are left with only domestic trade routes available (when all foreign city's trade routes have been taken). I'm not sure if "+1 trade route means recieving only, or if that city gives +1 trade route also - I think it is only recieving.

4. Charisma trait is strong. While you get level 3 (2nd promotion) at 4xp instead of 5xp, the difference xp required becomes huge at level 5+. Additionally, monumets are a cheap source of culture needed by most non-creative civs, and charismatic causes the monument to also give +1 happiness to the city.

5. Don't automate workers. You can see much farther ahead in city specialization than the AI can. The AI builds farms because they grow pops to rediculas levels (AI cities always seem to be at absurd populations). The AI seems more opportunistic than long-sighted in building improvements. The only time I automate is late in Multiplayer games, then turn timer does not allow war + worker management.

6. Efficient production of hammers, beakers (flasks, dammit!), or commerce depends largely on city specialization. Generally, it is best to focus a city on one type of production, and have a balance at the empire level. Also, whipping (hurry production via population with slavery) and chopping forests can lead to very high levels of production for short time periods.

7. Carthage is a 2nd tier civ (although one of my top10). Perhaps it is a sexist remark by firaxis

8. There are threads on cultural victory strategies. You dont max culture slider till after liberalism (or so is the conventioanl wisdom). Building combinations and great artists (+4000 culture) do the rest. You need to save those artists till the end unless you can do calculas to determine what culture each of your 3 cities will be at as you near 30k in each.

9. Early (and often) war. Kill 1-2 civ before catapults (by 0AD) and 1-2 when you get cats (finish them by 1000AD). Rinse, repeat.

 

[toug]

6. I know Sulla is some kind of professional gamer/super player, but still I find reading his walk through strains my credulity. He says stuff like "I wanted to build the UN so I picked a city and and two turns later there it was" or "Isabella got on my nerves, so I spent three turns building a huge army and wiped her out." I'm exaggerating, I know, but do you get what I mean? Are the kind production numbers he talks about common, or is that just an indication of how good he is at this? If those numbers are possible, what are the key factors to getting there?

It's funny because I know exactly what you were talking about. I thought the same thing today about aelf.

He was talking about the steps he was taking towards building the great library(could have been another wonder) and improving his economy. All of his screenshots and relevent discussion centered around all of this. And then, seemingly out of nowhere, he mentioned that he was declaring war on an opponent and brought up a screenshot of his war stack that had so many units I couldn't believe it. Where did he find all the time to build all those units?

What makes players like Sulla and aelf so good is they are efficient. They don't waste turns and they don't just hit the end turn button without being confident their turn is over. The game is just like chess and you have to think dozens of turns down the road.

I suggest that you keep playing improving on things you know you aren't good at and read Sulla and aelf's threads where they play a game through. You learn a lot, a real lot.

 

[LlamaCat]

6. I know Sulla is some kind of professional gamer/super player, but still I find reading his walk through strains my credulity. He says stuff like "I wanted to build the UN so I picked a city and and two turns later there it was" or "Isabella got on my nerves, so I spent three turns building a huge army and wiped her out."

My friend, I have been asking this same thing for quite some time and never gotten a straight answer. Yes, of course these players are more patient, methodical, efficient, etc., but that doesn't really answer the question, does it? What EXACTLY are they doing on these turns? What tiles are they working in each city, what build order... Usually, the response I get to that is: Well, every game is unique so each decision could be different in another situation and that doesn't really teach you what to do in your own game. Bully.

Of course this is true to a point, but even the grandmasters of chess explain in detail every single move they make and why they made them. That process helps the rest of the chess world learn and get better, but of course we will not all be grandmasters. And this is for chess, the ultimate game of infinite possibilities.

So can you imagine Kasparov describing a chess game where all he did was say things like "and then I pinned his knight with a 6-move combination, which ultimately led to checkmate"...? But that's exactly what we are getting in these silly Civ reports. They are interesting as basic stories, but I wouldn't mind a detailed blow-by-blow for once. Perhaps a quick speed game on a small map? Who knows, maybe one day they will offer it up to the masses.

I think you and I just want the wizard to pull back the curtain a bit, eh?

 

[DaviddesJ]

What EXACTLY are they doing on these turns? What tiles are they working in each city, what build order...

The Quick Start Challenge used to play this role, in Civ3. People would document exactly what they did, for the first 100 turns. But it doesn't seem to have survived in Civ4.

You can still learn a lot about how people play (especially in the early game) by reading the GOTM spoiler threads.

 

[LucyDuke]

Everybody answered your questions, I think, but I'll throw some verbiage out there anyway.

4. Is it just me, or is the charisma trait a really big disappointment?

It's just you. Charismatic is incredibly powerful for a warmonger. If you never go to war, the happiness is still a huge bonus at higher levels.

5. The strategy guide says don't put workers on automatic, cause they build too many farms and not enough cottages. Sulla says don't put workers on automatic cause they build too many cottages and not enough farms. So, what's that about? Is it just a matter of style? I am still not that much better than the AI at developing tiles, so I make the first few decisions for a city, then turn them to auto.

It won't kill you to automate them at first. As you get a better feel for the game, though, you'll see what's stupid about the decisions they make, and figure out the right things to build.

6. I know Sulla is some kind of professional gamer/super player, but still I find reading his walk through strains my credulity. He says stuff like "I wanted to build the UN so I picked a city and and two turns later there it was" or "Isabella got on my nerves, so I spent three turns building a huge army and wiped her out." I'm exaggerating, I know, but do you get what I mean? Are the kind production numbers he talks about common, or is that just an indication of how good he is at this? If those numbers are possible, what are the key factors to getting there?

Somebody mentioned aelf's challenges - if you follow threads like that, Sisiutil's ALCs, and so on, you'll learn to appreciate their methods. Those games are probably the most educational things around here, I've gotten much, much better just reading them through (though I'm still not all that good). Specialization also makes a huge difference, I think there are some guides in the war academy.

 

[Harbourboy]

1. Don't know. Might be related to health buildings like aqueducts and hospitals. It has little impact on gameplay.

2. Commerce is the stuff generated from the gold coins on your city screen. Commerce is then converted into Gold, Research, or Culture. Markets then multiply your Gold. Libraries multiply your Research. For example, if you put your slider down to 0% Gold, then your Market will do nothing (with some exceptions, such as Gold from Shrines or Specialists)

3. Trade routes are determined by size of cities, connections with cities, civics, and wonders.

4. Charisma can be really powerful, but only if you use it correctly. You won't get the Monument bonuses if you don't have any (for example). The usefulness of some of these things is somewhat hidden on lower levels (where happiness is not an issue, for example).

5. Automating workers will usually provide sub-optimal results. For example, the automated workers don't know that you are trying to make that city a Production powerhouse with factories and Ironworks and that you have no use for another windmill when you really a dirty great mine.

6. You have to be a bit more specific, but yes, there are all sort of tricks and gambits and slingshots and rushes and flips (and other nutty terms) that clever players (and thicko players like me) can use that are not apparent unless someone tells you about them.

7. That is a Freudian revelation about your subconscious thoughts.

8. You usually have to plan for cultural victory reasonably early on, because there is a chain of events that have to be set in motion to build up enough culture in 3 cities. For example, this usually this means building 3 cathedrals in 3 cities, which means you need 3 religions per city in at least 9 cities, in order to be able to build the 3 temples per religion required for each cathedral. Some smart players claim to be able to switch to cultural late in the game, but I need to work on it from pretty early on.

9. Either by turning off the Domination victory option, or by razing cities faster than your feeble opponents can re-settle.

10. There is no such word as 'wuz'.

 

[LucyDuke]

8. You usually have to plan for cultural victory reasonably early on, because there is a chain of events that have to be set in motion to build up enough culture in 3 cities. For example, this usually this means building 3 cathedrals in 3 cities, which means you need 3 religions per city in at least 9 cities, in order to be able to build the 3 temples per religion required for each cathedral. Some smart players claim to be able to switch to cultural late in the game, but I need to work on it from pretty early on.

I think a big factor in being able to switch to cultural late in the game is having had it in mind from earlier in the game. I try to bulk up the culture of three cities in the background if I have a chance, at least until I decide for sure what victory type I'm going for (and which one is the backup).

 

[The Green Man]

1. When I check demographics, I'm usually 1st in every category except life expectancy. There I'm in the middle or near the bottom. What factors determine life expectancy, and what is it about my playing style that makes me do so poorly there?
Perfect

Most of your other questions have been covered, but I haven't seen a definitive response on this one. I've wondered about this too (along with the approval rating) and I have a theory about them. I think they're a measure of how close your cities are to their health and happiness ceilings. For example, if a city has a health potential of 10 but is only using 5 of it, that city will have a better life expectancy rating than another 10 health city at maximum population and no health 'to spare'.

That's my guess anyway...I can't say I've really tested it so I could be completely wrong. Anyone know for sure?

 

[DaviddesJ]

The inner workings of the Demo screen explained
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098

 

[Perfect909]

Wow, this is great. A whole bunch of answers, and so quick. Thanks to everybody that answered.

A few comments/followups:

1. RE: life expectancy - I almost never whip my people to death, so it's not based on that.

2. Doh! Thanks for the clarification.

3. ---

4. That's interesting info about charisma. I'm wondering, though - do y'all really use monuments that much? They are made obsolete so quickly. Do you build them in individual cities, or only get them from Stonehenge? I only build Stonehenge when I have stone nearby. Is it really that worthwhile?

5. I guess I've got a lot to learn.

6. Same as #5.

7. I think there is much more to discover re: this question. http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

8. ---

9. Kill two civs by 0 AD and two more by 1000 AD? Hmm, I've never even considered trying that. That'll be interesting to try.

10. No word as "wuz"? Sure there is, I just spelled it creatively.

See ya. Perfect.

 

[mrt144]

4. i defintely feel that stonehenge is worthwile for the charismatic because of the bonus of happiness and culture. this saves on building culture buildings and happiness buildings for every city till obsolesence. plus generating gp points early cant be that bad.

i wouldnt really feel that way about civs with other traits though.

 

[mrt144]

life expentancy is probably based on how much above unhealthiness you are in cities.

 

[DaviddesJ]

life expentancy is probably based on how much above unhealthiness you are in cities.

Why not read the reference in #11, instead of just guessing?

 

[Harbourboy]

4. That's interesting info about charisma. I'm wondering, though - do y'all really use monuments that much? They are made obsolete so quickly. Do you build them in individual cities, or only get them from Stonehenge? I only build Stonehenge when I have stone nearby. Is it really that worthwhile?

In some circumstances, Stonehenge is invaluable. Things to consider:
- it is really cheap so is easy to build, even without stone
- the AI hardly ever prioritises it
- it gives you Great Prophet points, which can be great to get first if you have a holy city to set a shrine up in
- if you are in a land grab with the AI, monuments let you get your culture up quickly. This is alos useful if you need to work resources outside the initial 9 square zone. That is why it doesn't matter that it expires early on. It's real value is in the those first few turns of getting a new city established.
- for Charismatic civs, 1 extra means 1 extra tile your city can work. That is huge.

 

[axident]

Good comment, but I want to say that domestic trade routes are NOT always worth just 1, it depends on the sizes of the cities involved and how much commerce is going on. I've had lots of midgame domestic trade routes go for 2, for instance.

1. I think whipping and starving affects this, but I'm guessing. Since the AI almost never whips (even with an army about to take that 5 population city), you should generally be at the bottom of this.

2. Commerce can be turned into gold OR research, depending on your research slider. Libraries allow you to run specialists (2 scientists max for library), but you need a good food source to support this.

3. Trade routes are are determined by roads between capitals, or coastal cities when you have researched sailing. I've heard that open borders increases trade (might even be required), but I do not know the details of this (I'm a warmonger, I rarely have good relations with more than 1 civ). Domestic trade routes are only worth 1 gold per route. Foreign trade routes are worth 2-10, averaging about 5. The number of trade routes starts at 1, and is increased by buildings and wonders. Each city can only trade with 1 other, and the routes are determined by gold value, with the big value cities usually trade routing each other, then smaller ones, etc. The value of a city's trade route is determined by population, GNP, and other things. For example, if your capital has 2 trade routes available, it will probably give it's route to a foreign capital, and take a trade route from the foreign capital and the 2nd best foreign trade route. Your 2nd best city will take the next best foreign route, until your cities are left with only domestic trade routes available (when all foreign city's trade routes have been taken). I'm not sure if "+1 trade route means recieving only, or if that city gives +1 trade route also - I think it is only recieving.

4. Charisma trait is strong. While you get level 3 (2nd promotion) at 4xp instead of 5xp, the difference xp required becomes huge at level 5+. Additionally, monumets are a cheap source of culture needed by most non-creative civs, and charismatic causes the monument to also give +1 happiness to the city.

5. Don't automate workers. You can see much farther ahead in city specialization than the AI can. The AI builds farms because they grow pops to rediculas levels (AI cities always seem to be at absurd populations). The AI seems more opportunistic than long-sighted in building improvements. The only time I automate is late in Multiplayer games, then turn timer does not allow war + worker management.

6. Efficient production of hammers, beakers (flasks, dammit!), or commerce depends largely on city specialization. Generally, it is best to focus a city on one type of production, and have a balance at the empire level. Also, whipping (hurry production via population with slavery) and chopping forests can lead to very high levels of production for short time periods.

7. Carthage is a 2nd tier civ (although one of my top10). Perhaps it is a sexist remark by firaxis

8. There are threads on cultural victory strategies. You dont max culture slider till after liberalism (or so is the conventioanl wisdom). Building combinations and great artists (+4000 culture) do the rest. You need to save those artists till the end unless you can do calculas to determine what culture each of your 3 cities will be at as you near 30k in each.

9. Early (and often) war. Kill 1-2 civ before catapults (by 0AD) and 1-2 when you get cats (finish them by 1000AD). Rinse, repeat.

 

[axident]

I've read the the basic strategy guide and Sulla's walkthrough; thanks to whoever it was that turned me on to those. I should read them again, I know, but I've got some questions. Please be patient with me, I'm a lot stupider than I look. I'm playing at warlord level, and games end when I win by domination or get bored. I guess I'm ready for play at the Noble level, but there are some things I don't get yet. If there's a FAQ for this stuff, please point me to it.

1. When I check demographics, I'm usually 1st in every category except life expectancy. There I'm in the middle or near the bottom. What factors determine life expectancy, and what is it about my playing style that makes me do so poorly there?

2. If research amount is determined by income, does it make more sense to build a market/grocer/bank FIRST, and a library/university second? The former increases your income AND research, the latter only research. Do I have that right, or am I confused?

3. What determines the trade routes for a city? Can I have direct effect on that? Indirect effect?

4. Is it just me, or is the charisma trait a really big disappointment?

5. The strategy guide says don't put workers on automatic, cause they build too many farms and not enough cottages. Sulla says don't put workers on automatic cause they build too many cottages and not enough farms. So, what's that about? Is it just a matter of style? I am still not that much better than the AI at developing tiles, so I make the first few decisions for a city, then turn them to auto.

6. I know Sulla is some kind of professional gamer/super player, but still I find reading his walk through strains my credulity. He says stuff like "I wanted to build the UN so I picked a city and and two turns later there it was" or "Isabella got on my nerves, so I spent three turns building a huge army and wiped her out." I'm exaggerating, I know, but do you get what I mean? Are the kind production numbers he talks about common, or is that just an indication of how good he is at this? If those numbers are possible, what are the key factors to getting there?

7. Why does the symbol for Carthage look like the door to the ladies room?

8. If you want to win by culture, do you have to plan that from the start? I've had cities with over 20,000 culture, and if I put technology to 0 and culture to 100, I might have gotten one city over 50,000, but three? How is that done?

9. How do you win by conquest? If you conquer cities and keep them, you win by domination. If you conquer cities and don't keep them, the other civs will fill in faster than you can say boo.

Any helpful hints will be appreciated.

Perfect

People talked the other stuff to death, but point nine is just false. Think about a situation where you are destroying every civ you can, razing lots of cities, but not founding a lot of your own cities. You can easily have a situation where you win by conquest rather than domination since you have less than X/Y percent of the world, but that percentage is still greater than zero, which is where every other civ is.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

1. When I check demographics, I'm usually 1st in every category except life expectancy. There I'm in the middle or near the bottom. What factors determine life expectancy, and what is it about my playing style that makes me do so poorly there?

IIRC, whipping actually increases your life expectancy (might depend, but still..).. getting rid of unhealthy/unhappy population by "putting them to do something usefull" actually makes your stats go up. I tried once health/happy game variant by getting all the env (+health) and happy techs and not whipping.. results were not good even if i was a sole leader in other categories in that game.

 

[KMadCandy]

conquest wins can be easier on certain map types. i needed a win of each type for HoF, but i had to have all types of wins turned on, which makes it harder. so i used an archi map, killed izzy before she met anybody else but after she took the trouble to make me two holy cities (thanks!). i use galleys, was a pain but worth it.

her territory i kept obviously, augustus's i kept, and 1 or 2 others i killed but didn't keep any of their islands. the last 4 i turned into vassals, and thus won by conquest. carrying all those troops around on galleons was a big fat pain but i needed a win on each type of map too, so i got 3 things out of the way at once (need each civ as well, that was my first game as the vikings).

just another theory for the mix.