So Inflation Is Killing Me - Video In Thread

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Public works are historically considered as large infrastructure and public area improvement projects initiated by the government, it is not so much about welfare as it is about public areas, water supply, sewage and the like.
The roman empire funded such large projects, like the building of aqueducts, paved roads, Colosseum, etc. all stuff that was meant to be used indiscriminately by all citizens.

That would be true if it were not in the Welfare column.

 

[Toffer90]

I've always considered it misplaced, or the odd one out, due to the lack of a better category for it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is an old term used instead of the word philanthropy.

 

[DC0]

All the examples you are referring to were societies and people who could be described as many things, not just by the term communism.

You base your arguments in favor of communism on idea of "ideal" man, deprived of any evils of the soul, who lives in ideal society, comprised of the same ideal people. Who are all the same.

Any of the above will never exist in reality.

I base my arguments against communism (including socialism and fascism) on basic reality, common sense and many historical examples.

Here is by far the best reply to your arguments I've ever seen. It's lengthy, but well worth watching. And learning.

 

[raxo2222]

Toffer says what communism/socialism is in theory (like Karl Max books or something like that) and DC0 what is communism/socialism in reality (USSR, China, Venezuela).
In C2C communism simply doesn't exist as civic, just as tech.
That is mod treats it as component ideology.
I guess Toffers communist civilization would have different civics than DC0's one.
Mainly Toffer would use Democracy for government and DC0 would use Totalitarianism.
Total control of economy by state and total lack of control of economy by state is bad because humans are flawed.

 

[Noriad2]

Total control of economy by state and total lack of control of economy by state is bad because humans are flawed.

Communism fails because there is no positive motivation to work. All benefits of your work go to "the collective".

There is an old joke from the Soviet Union:

Soviet President Gorbachev is doing "reforms" and the West is wondering how successful he is. So they send James Bond to spy on the economy.
James Bond arrives in Moscow and walks through the city. He passes a bakery, and it is out of bread. So James writes in his little notebook: "no bread".
He walks on and passes a shoe store. There are no shoes for sale. James writes in his little notebook "no shoes". He walks on and passes a butchery. There is no meat. So James writes in his little notebook "no meat".
Then somebody taps him on the shoulder. James turns around, and a man stands behind him. The man says "I'm with the KGB and we used to shoot people like you." So James Bond writes in his little notebook "no bullets".

That's why communism fails. There is no positive incentive to work, so there must be a negative incentive: "work or I'll shoot you". And when the country runs out of bullets, even the negative incentive does not work anymore. And thus communism inevitably collapses.

 

[raxo2222]

Communism fails because there is no positive motivation to work. All benefits of your work go to "the collective".

There is an old joke from the Soviet Union:

Soviet President Gorbachev is doing "reforms" and the West is wondering how successful he is. So they send James Bond to spy on the economy.
James Bond arrives in Moscow and walks through the city. He passes a bakery, and it is out of bread. So James writes in his little notebook: "no bread".
He walks on and passes a shoe store. There are no shoes for sale. James writes in his little notebook "no shoes". He walks on and passes a butchery. There is no meat. So James writes in his little notebook "no meat".
Then somebody taps him on the shoulder. James turns around, and a man stands behind him. The man says "I'm with the KGB and we used to shoot people like you." So James Bond writes in his little notebook "no bullets".

That's why communism fails. There is no positive incentive to work, so there must be a negative incentive: "work or I'll shoot you". And when the country runs out of bullets, even the negative incentive does not work anymore. And thus communism inevitably collapses.

This is why I said total control of economy is bad.
Robots don't need motivation unlike humans.

 

[Noriad2]

This is why I said total control of economy is bad.
Robots don't need motivation unlike humans.

It requires a lot of work to develop and build functioning robots.

 

[raxo2222]

It requires a lot of work to develop and build functioning robots.

I know, for now some sort of mixed economy system is best.
Until we start massively losing jobs to robots.
Stray too far one or other way and various issues will pop up.
Norway, Singapore, Switzerland for example are working well aside from immigration/birth rate issues.

There is human factor too - replace Norwegians with Singaporeans and vice versa, and then suddenly something may break.

Is there way to maintain good quality of life and small population growth without immigration?
Ex-communist countries have stagnant or declining population (eastern Europe)

 

[DC0]

What I see in the modern world, at least in the States, is the attitude that Ford was completely nuts and that his approach only works if we all cooperate as employers to do the same (pay high wages). But as soon as margins tighten and shareholders whine

Exactly. Current situation in USA is a result of crapitalism (crony capitalism), which is in essence oligarchy.

Financial institutions lobby government to pump up financial sector. All currency is being herded by government (using regulations and taxation) into securities market and other financial instruments. Just look at derivatives market cap. It's from alternative universe.
And "sub-prime" derivatives... It was a fraud. Obviously. Paid by future taxpayers.

This sucking of currency from entire economy into financial sector makes all CEOs worry about short term gains on shares prices. So they are busy with cutting expenses and falsification of accounting books. Nobody thinks about long term development of the company.

 

[Toffer90]

You base your arguments in favor of communism on idea of "ideal" man, deprived of any evils of the soul, who lives in ideal society, comprised of the same ideal people. Who are all the same.

I base my arguments against communism (including socialism and fascism) on basic reality, common sense and many historical examples.

That makes no sense, I didn't argue for or against communism or capitalism at all....
I didn't make one argument in favour of communism based on any characteristic of the soul, you are the one who seems to define the term as something evil.

I said that communism is basically the idea that a society based on cooperation is better than competition. Therefore you can deduce that I also said that capitalism is basically the idea that a society based on competition is better than cooperation.
Your reaction to the above notion is to tell me it is propaganda and that I should read a bit history that is completely irrelevant to what I said.
I can't understand how I'm bending the truth in my simple description of that term.

If you were to describe capitalism and communism, two opposite economical ideals, each in one sentence, how would you do it?
Keep in mind that the description of one must be proportional to the description of the other.

 

[DC0]

Toffer says what communism/socialism is in theory (like Karl Max books or something like that) and DC0 what is communism/socialism in reality (USSR, China, Venezuela).
In C2C communism simply doesn't exist as civic

Theory and practice difference. Exactly.

And therefore I urge game developers to be responsible and base effects of civics in games on effects we see in real life.

Kids play games. Kids learn from games. Sometimes it takes a lot of efforts to convince kids that something they learned in a game is false and in reality has completely different results, sometimes opposite to declared.

 

[Noriad2]

Capitalism: if I work I want to keep the fruits of my labour.
Communism: everything should be transferred to a nebulous "collective" and from that "collective" to me. Because I like free stuff.

 

[Noriad2]

Theory and practice difference. Exactly.

And therefore I urge game developers to be responsible and base effects of civics in games on effects we see in real life.

Kids play games. Kids learn from games. Sometimes it takes a lot of efforts to convince kids that something they learned in a game is false and in reality has completely different results, sometimes opposite to declared.

Yes by the time of the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, everybody knew that communism was horrible, and why. But since then new generations have been born, that again fall for the same nice-sounding fake bullfertiliser arguments how communism isn't real communism and the theory sounds so nice and noble.

 

[DC0]

If you were to describe capitalism and communism, two opposite economical ideals, each in one sentence, how would you do it?

Capitalism: political and economic system, based on personal freedom and responsibility, freedom of association, private property.
Communism: political and economic system, based on compulsion, resulting from deprivation of private property and personal responsibility.

 

[raxo2222]

Theory and practice difference. Exactly.

And therefore I urge game developers to be responsible and base effects of civics in games on effects we see in real life.

Kids play games. Kids learn from games. Sometimes it takes a lot of efforts to convince kids that something they learned in a game is false and in reality has completely different results, sometimes opposite to declared.

As I posted on last page examples, communism like USSR one is multicomponent.

Probably I have few civics set wrong on this USSR communism simulation.
Technically you could set economy to Free Market in game and rest leave as in example.
Or have Theocracy, Divine Right and Atheism active.

Or you can mix and math and have components from monarchy, capitalism, communism, and theocracy.
Civic categories don't interact with each other.
In real world some civic categories would interact strongly with each other.

 

[Toffer90]

Capitalism: political and economic system, based on personal freedom and responsibility, freedom of association, private property.
Communism: political and economic system, based on compulsion, resulting from deprivation of private property and personal responsibility.

Fair to say, I do not agree with your definition of the terms. Neither are, in my opinion, political or economical systems, both are political ideas regarding political principles, but not a system in itself.

The way I see it:
Neither, capitalism nor communism holds any meaning related to liberalism vs authoritarianism, that is a completely different scale. (This is what we disagree on as far as I understand)
Neither, capitalism nor communism holds any meaning related to socialism vs social darwinism, that is a completely different scale.
etc.

I prefer to keep each -ism definition unique without overlap, what is the integral unique thing about the -ism. Othervise it is impossible to use the words in conversation because they would always mean too much to be applicable.

 

[tmv]

f you were to describe capitalism and communism, two opposite economical ideals, each in one sentence, how would you do it?
Keep in mind that the description of one must be proportional to the description of the other.

Capitalism: Private ownership of the means of production
Communism: Public ownership of the means of production

(taken from L. v. Mises)

 

[Toffer90]

Capitalism: Private ownership of the means of production
Communism: Public ownership of the means of production

This one I can agree with. ^^

 

[DC0]

As I posted on last page examples, communism like USSR one is multicomponent.

Probably I have few civics set wrong on this USSR communism simulation.

Yes, you did several wrong. In USSR was "developed socialism". Because even staunch bolsheviks, even after killing millions of people, failed to make "soviet human".
In C2C terms, USSR was (I'll list only civics you got wrong)
Rule: bureaucracy.
Military: conscription + professional army.
Religion: statism. Holy trinity was Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin.
Welfare: socialized. Kindergarden, education, healthcare, summer labor camps for youth were "free". State was paying pensions (age and disability). Mass transit subsidies were paid to certain group of people. I guess it is called socialized.

Technically you could set economy to Free Market in game and rest leave as in example.

Only in game this would work
In real life you cannot have free market without personal freedom (Republic). Real life example: contemporary Russia. We now have autocracy with technically free market. But in fact we have oligarchy (I guess you can call it corporatism).

In real world some civic categories would interact strongly with each other.

Yes, exactly. And it can be simulated in game. Certain civics should be enactable only if certain other civics are active.