So I've started making units

[zulu9812]

Okay, so it's taken me about 2 years to get 'round to this. But hey - it means I can fill my own unit requests!

This unit is actually all but complete. The flcs are complete but I ran into some problems making the civilopedia pics (utahjazz7's helping me out on that). This is a Carthaginian Pikeman.



I'm in 2 minds about how to use this unit. One part of me wants to use this as the Carthaginian ancient-age spearman, have a different UU and use the Numidian Mercenary as the Carthaginian middle-age pikeman. The other part of me wants to use this new unit as the middle-age pikeman. What does everyone reckon?


Speaking of filling my own unit requests, I've started work on the British Peltast I requested in my newest unit request thread (if anyone wants to pick up on any, check out my sig). I'd like your opinions on this one.

Poser-working scale



Civ-scale



As you can see, the hair doesn't quite look right at civ-scale. I also think that the shirt stripes are a bit too thin. I'm also not totally sold on the cape - looks a bit too superhero-esque. Finally, is the javeline the right width and length?

 

[Plotinus]

First chap looks excellent. Second looks good too - the javelin looks fine - although I'm not convinced by the patterning on his clothes - makes him look like Dennis the Menace!

 

[zulu9812]

although I'm not convinced by the patterning on his clothes - makes him look like Dennis the Menace!

Well, it's based off of this image

 

[Bjornlo]

Looks great for a first effort. I've seen worse from guys that have been at it quite a while.
On the first unit.
I'd consider putting him in either short-pants or a tunic, rather then long pants. Perhaps short sleeved or sleeve-less shirt as well. The shoes "might" look better in black or really dark brown. For the death anim, the helmet looks a bit glued on. Maybe have it fall off as he goes down?
On the 2nd unit.
Hair: The hair is too low in contrast. Make the curls a bit thicker and the shadows darker (change in lighting?) and his hair should look better. The stripes on the shirt seem a bit thin at civ scale. Have the shirt come down a bit further. Maybe add a broad leather belt to add some detail? The cape looks out of place. Maybe match its color to his pants, and if possible have it come over his non-throwing shoulder. As is, it puffs-up behind him, and is sort of a superman blue as well. Maybe give him some spare javalins in his off hand, and have the attack anim end with him getting a new javalin out of his off-hand (like your source image suggests). Otherwise he will have the magical spear.. toss it and it returns.

 

[zulu9812]

I'd consider putting him in either short-pants or a tunic, rather then long pants. Perhaps short sleeved or sleeve-less shirt as well.

Well, it's supposed to be chainmail

The shoes "might" look better in black or really dark brown. For the death anim, the helmet looks a bit glued on. Maybe have it fall off as he goes down?

Good points - I think I'll do that

On the 2nd unit. The cape looks out of place. Maybe match its color to his pants, and if possible have it come over his non-throwing shoulder. As is, it puffs-up behind him, and is sort of a superman blue as well.

Well, the cape is blue because it's civ-coloured. So in-game it'll be red, oragne, pink, etc. depending on who uses it. The cape is a prop made by CamJH and it doesn't have any morphs so that's about it unfortunately. I could see if I could get my M3 Morphing Cloak to fit Paperdoll though.

Maybe give him some spare javalins in his off hand, and have the attack anim end with him getting a new javalin out of his off-hand (like your source image suggests). Otherwise he will have the magical spear.. toss it and it returns.

I was planning on having the 'magic spear toss' (just easier to animate) but I suppose I give that a go.

Cheers for your responses guys

 

[Mithadan]

Good Golly, this is a wonderful development in Civland!

I think the Carthaginian guy is fine as is.

The cape on the peltast is a bit stiff looking, but I can only imagine how hard it would be to make it flowy. I thought it was a big shield at first. Maybe try to drape it over the guy's one shoulder? Or make it shorter on the bottom a bit? Or if that's too much work, you could just scrap it. It wouldn't be horrible if the guy didn't have a cloak, I guess.

Not like I know much about javelins, but your javelin looks stout enough to be a stabbing spear. I s'pose if it were thinner, though, it would night disappear at civ-scale. Maybe if it were a fair bit shorter that would get the idea accross?

The magically-never-ending-supply-of-javelins-in-the-left-hand's-bundle sounds like a good solution to the problem of where the next javelin comes from in the animation.

 

[Bjornlo]

Well, it's supposed to be chainmail

Ah... I don't think Carthage and chainmail... they were a former power by the time chainmail made its debut.
I suppose it depends on the era this is intended for.
Generally speaking, it is my understanding that the spear type troops were for mobility, and the heavier armor was more for swordsmen. A spear is a thrusting weapon and the key to not getting hurt by it was to move, while with a sword it was often not possible to move out of the way and the blow had to be deflected someway. Nothing wrong with a heavy spear, mind you.
If you want to keep the leg armor, maybe something more like banded would show it was metal better??

Well, the cape is blue because it's civ-coloured. So in-game it'll be red, oragne, pink, etc. depending on who uses it. The cape is a prop made by CamJH and it doesn't have any morphs so that's about it unfortunately. I could see if I could get my M3 Morphing Cloak to fit Paperdoll though.

Doh! of course it is civ colored. Another thing to experiment with would be for the red stripe in the shirt to be made to be civ colored.

 

[Bungus]

The peltast's shirt stripes are as you suggestedd, too thin. You'll probably need to double their width. The hair looks like a problem. I guess that's why most units have hats. The spear is good. It's about as thick as most in the game and as we know, thin spears tend to dissapear at civ-scale. The cape looks bad and out of place.

The carthaginian looks great. Nice props and animation isn't half-hearted, either. He does a pretty convincing job thrusting that spear. But what's that thin black thing on top of his helmet? It looks bad, whatever it es.
Good work. Can't wait to see these guys and what else you come up with. Maybe that ancient asian swordsman next?

 

[zulu9812]

Okay, I changed the shirt pattern, and I made the javelin a bit shorter. I also opted for a completely different hairstyle and I think it looks better. As far as the cape goes, there's not a lot I can do. I tried converting my morphing cloak for M3 (which can be manipulated to have folds and bends) to work with Paperdoll, but it turned out very badly. Finally, whilst the cape is blue in Poser, for some reason it doesn't render that way. The inside of the cape is blue, but the outside is almost black. I'm not quite sure why this is, and it's not changeable because the cape isn't divided into inner and outer material zones.

 

[Mithadan]

Maybe one of the other unit animators can help you out with the blackening-cloak problem?

The shorter javelin looks better to me, although I reckon the guy should still hold it in the middle?

@Bjornlo: Weren't swordsmen always the guys fighting in looser formations and using more acrobatics (waving swords abouve heads), and spearmen the tightly ranked heavy infantry with gigantic shield and thrusting spears? If that's so, then chain mail (if any armament at all) seems more likely to be a swordsman's thing, which I suppose explains why (so I hear) the Celts invented it. Roman Legions, I guess, would be special in being something of a mix of heavy infantry and swordsmen (minus the acrobatics).

That said, who cares if the Carthaginian unit here depicted has chain mail? It's awesome, and if, as was suggested above, it's use is for a medieval unit replacement, then chain mail would be appropriate anyhow (as if one can tell at civ scale that it is chainmail).

 

[Plotinus]

Is it possible to make his shirt longer? The concept artwork has a tunic with a belt, but the model looks like he's wearing a jumper. I think if you fix that it will help enormously - the unit should be great.

 

[zulu9812]

Is it possible to make his shirt longer? The concept artwork has a tunic with a belt, but the model looks like he's wearing a jumper. I think if you fix that it will help enormously - the unit should be great.

How about this?

 

[Plotinus]

I think that is much better - looks far more archaic. Personally I'd probably make it a bit longer and perhaps add a belt to give it a bit of definition and make it clear that it's a tunic rather than a jumper that stretched in the wash, but if you're happy with it like that it would probably be fine too.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

You making units is a Godsend Zulu. I'm glad to see you haven't given up after the diffeculties you had earlier. I just want you to know that even though we had our disagreements on the Off-Topic forum, that I hope you don't hold anything against me. (I'm saying this to be nice, not because I want anything from you btw)

 

[utahjazz7]

I'll try to help a little bit; although, I unfortunately don't have Poser in front of me right now.

black cape rendering

There isn't too much that can be done about that. I had it happen with a cape that I made before too. Anyway, in the materials room, you can adjust the reflective color and I think reflexive color--I just can't remember off-hand, I hardly ever use them. But, if you play with them, you might get a civ-specific blue. The downside is that the underside of the cape might turn really bright. Also, there will be a bad effect on your shadows and highlights. It just depends on how picky you are about that.

magic spear

If you don't want the magic spear showing up out of nowhere, it's a little tricky. Let me see, if I can describe the process without actually doing it. (After writing it and reading through it, it should work. I can't think why it wouldn't.)

1. In the right hand you will have a spear. The spear is parented to the right hand.

2. In the left hand, you will have a couple of spears parented to the left hand.

3. In the attack animation, animate the unit until the frame where the spear would be being released.

4. Make all frames up until and including this frame key frames. That would be for the PDM figure and the spear props.

5. Then select the spear in the right hand and change the parent to the ROTATE BALL.

6. Animate the path of the spear in the air. It should probably only be two frames, or three at the most.

7. Make those frames for the spear, key frames.

8. In those same frames, animate the PDM figure's follow through.

9. Make those key frames for the PDM figure as well.

10. Select the spear again and change the parent back to the PDM figure's right hand.

11. In the key frame editor, copy and paste the spear's first frame of the attack animation into the frame after it's flight path. This should place the spear back in the PDM figure's right hand.

12. Close the key frame editor.

13. In that frame, set the spear's scale to .0001%. This should make it invisible.

14. Then animate the PDM figure as it reaches to grab a new spear from the left hand. Bear in mind which way the tips of the spears' are pointing in both the right and left hands.

15. When the right hand reaches the left hand, make key frames up to and including that frame for the PDM figure and the spear.

16. In the next frame, set the spear's scale to 100%.

17. Copy and paste the PDM's last frame of the fortify animation into the last frame of the attack animation.

18. Make any adjustments necessary to prevent props and body parts from intersecting.

19. Make key frames for any frames of the attack animation which are not already.

 

[Bjornlo]

I did something like what you're talking about in a failed experiment for my x303.
I had missles and fighters attack in waves, but did not want to make dozens of each.
Solution:
Had the key frames for the items at out of camera for frame "x", then in "x+1" I had the item where it was to be reloaded from. End result was there was no visible loop. It looked like wave after wave in attacks. Just took too many frames to use.
I think the same could be done here.
Say the attack is 24 frames. In frame 8 the spear begins to fly, it disappears off camera in frame 16 (key framed well off camera) in fram 17 he begins to "grab a new spear".
In frame 20 he grabs one (the spear that was off frame and key-framed off camera in frame 19, is now keyframed in his throwing hand, which is over the bundle of spears). This will keep the spear from flying back. And eliminates the need to re-size the spear. I've found from my limited experiance and experiments that the re-size trick is a pain in the rump.
Then from frames 20-24 he moves back into the ready position.
Of course I bow to your greater experiance, I've yet to do more then goof around with poser.

 

[Bjornlo]

How about this?

It looks better. I'd say it looks ready to go. The stripes are right. The slightly darker hair works better too.
Good work.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Personally I'd ditch the cape and make the body strips civ coloured. Capes are one of the most difficult things to get to work well on a unit (other than dresses and trenchcoats) and are best saved untill you are more practiced with animation and prop building, (it's allways best if you can build your own stuff, but if not steer clear).

Looks great overall though, I think the carthaginian is just perfect.

 

[Kyriakos]

very nice units

 

[utahjazz7]

Say the attack is 24 frames. In frame 8 the spear begins to fly, it disappears off camera in frame 16 (key framed well off camera) in fram 17 he begins to "grab a new spear".
In frame 20 he grabs one (the spear that was off frame and key-framed off camera in frame 19, is now keyframed in his throwing hand, which is over the bundle of spears). This will keep the spear from flying back. And eliminates the need to re-size the spear. I've found from my limited experiance and experiments that the re-size trick is a pain in the rump.
Then from frames 20-24 he moves back into the ready position.

There's really no need to make the animation longer than 15 frames, to be honest. The resize trick isn't all that hard as long as you remember to use your key frames.