so? now what?

[MagisterCultuum]

I think giving the archers Barrage like they have in Age of Ice would be the way to make them better.

Like in AoI, or like in other mods like BtS's Defense mod?

The AoI way is a python spell with complicated prereqs and effects. It autotargets the largest stack. The AI would have no hope of using it effectively.

The second way is way easier to implement (xml only, all in the unit defines), allows you to target specific tiles, and is well understood by the AI. Also, different units could do different amounts of damage and have different limits on the maximum amount they can injure rivals. Also, it takes into account the defending unit's defense strength, promotions, terrain, etc. Ranged Marksmen will still attack the weakest units.

 

[El_Duderino]

while i personally like the idea of archers having the barrage ability i can understand kael's point of it infringing on the adept line, but i see possibility in the inclusion of air units and giving archerers an intercept chance or a huge bonus against flying units. but i'm not a fan of airships for anyone aside from the luchurip (and im still iffy about that), i would like for the barbarians to spawn airunits throught the game like wyverns, drakes, or giant birds like the one from AoI they would be harder to kill because of the flying but would lose the pillage ability. i think this would give the archer line a must have status as well as keeping barbarians dangerous past midgame

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I concur. My modmod will include bird upgrades (I'm not sure weather I want only 1, or 1 basic attack bird that upgrades to a stronger national unit, with level requirements) that can attack and archers that can attack at range and intercept birds.

The Luchuirp will probably have a Zeppelin UU of the bird upgrade. This will cost much more and birds can't upgrade to them, but they will probably be stronger (I dount I'll let the birds have lethal attacks, but these might) and maybe even have 1 cargo capacity. They will probably be at Machinery instead of Feral Bond or Commune with Nature like the other birds. (Of course, I might move some techs around too)

I'm not so sure about the barbarian wyverns, drakes, giant birds, etc., spawning throughout the game. If I do add them, they will probably be created only by events or only spawn on Unique Features. It would be nice to have a Rok's nest improvement appear on peaks and spawn giant birds, but the weird way peaks are implemented mean I'd need to place these in python (probably meaning random events). I haven't even tried adding new events yet, but I have made some changes in the python part of a few and probably won't find it too hard.

 

[psychoak]

I think the main problem with archers is that they aren't really any good at defense.

A 3/5 archer or a 5/5 axeman? There's no real reason to go after the archer instead of the bronze weapon tier 2 melee unit. The agressive trait doesn't help them, drilling isn't unique to them, things like magic and 5 movement commando cavalry make static defense suicide even if you have all your cities on hills and get the +50% boost.

The only thing they really have going for them is city defender. The forest defense upgrades are restricted from them, and the second hill upgrade requires arete.

If you go for malevolent designs, you get 15 strength eidolons, if you go for machinery, you take a little longer to get there, and you get 15 defensive strength crossbowmen. A marginal advantage on defense, a huge disadvantage on offense. The way up isn't much better, longbows aren't a match for stygian guards unless they're sitting in a favorable position, in which case your own stygian guards would do just as well.

They'd need to actually be better on defense as is, not if you have the city defender upgrades and only if. Even if you don't have copper, axemen will likely get you farther than archers will. You can't attack the axemen stacks with archers unless you have overwhelming odds, so you'll feed them highly experienced units and get little on your own, then die.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I just thought of a reason to give dragons a spell instead of AirCombat: Acheon's 0 movement would prevent him from ever using AirCombat, but wouldn't stop spells. If I went to AirCombat only, I'd need a new way to hold him in place.

I guess I could just give him this spell though, and let the other dragons have ranged attacks.

 

[El_Duderino]

well it wouldnt really be acheron if he wasnt a pain in the ass now would it?

 

[Roghar]

In the short time at least I reckon just drop the price - archers are peasant troops. They are already distinguished by their lack of metal upgrades, defensive focus and different promotions. As they aren't overall as good make em cheaper

 

[Marnok]

Random archer ideas (not thought about how to implement!):
Give a boost to fighting defender based on archers in defending tile - like +1 first strike for each defending archer unit. (so, even if Axeman is picked to defend, if there are 3 archers in the tile he gets +3 first strikes when defending)
Give archers "defensive" promotion.
Let archers pin down enemy units to prevent moving when next to them (or take damage when they do)

 

[Wyrmhero]

How about giving archers a definate First Strike, instead of just the First Strike Chance, and letting them use Bronze Weaponry, since Longbowmen can use Iron & Bronze? However, that still doesn't balance them out against the fact that Champions can get Mithril...

Oh yes, how come Marksmen require Mithril & Mithril Working, but don't have the ability to get any Metal upgrades?

 

[Marnok]

Perhaps a range of archer-specific upgrades, like explosive arrows, poison-gas arrows, stun arrows, etc...

 

[leo.]

I'd like to see archers having different combat modifiers.

Currently it is: 25% hill defense, 25% city defense, 1 first strike.

It's only realistic to give them a great bonus vs melee units, perhaps even vs recon units (rangers are still a strong, early unit and not that far away from archers, and move 2)

My favourite: 25% hill defense, 25% city defense, 25% vs melee, 10% vs recon units, 1-2 first strikes.

I wonder mounted units get such a high bonus vs archers.

Horsemen: 25% withdraw, 40% (!) vs archery units.
Chariots, Rathas and Horse archers get just a high withdrawl chance (25%, 35%). But Rathas get an insane bonus vs recon units, 50% (!!)

I would like it like this:
Horsemen: 25% withdraw (+ ?)
Chariot and rathas: 30% withdraw, 25% vs recons
Horse archers: 35% withdraw, 25% vs archers

All without any defensive bonus, including centaurs, well perhaps hippus or dwarves (boar riders) get that.

Archers have only 3/5 strength (or 4/5). Perhaps 4/5 and 5/5 would do better.
If flaming arrows are available earlier, they would do much better.
Any chance to fusion enchanted blade with flaming arrows? I always felt that flaming arrows are a bit weak for a 2nd sphere spell. Perhaps it is possible to let adepts cast both, flaming arrows and enchanted blade with enchantment1? Or exchange enchantment1 with enchantment2.... I could also imagine to have poisoned arrows with nature mana etcetc

 

[Willgar]

In the short time at least I reckon just drop the price - archers are peasant troops. They are already distinguished by their lack of metal upgrades, defensive focus and different promotions. As they aren't overall as good make em cheaper

That is what i would suggest. If they were 2/4 with 25% city defence and available at the same time as Warriors with the same hammer cost, they would be usefull. Also, allowing scouts to upgrade to archers would also be usefull.

PS - I dont think it is about making the archery line more "powerfull" just more usefull. There was a thread a while back talking about combined arms, maybe giving archers the ability to help other units in the stack like mitigate collateral, or increase the bonuses of defencive structure or negate attackers first strike bonuses....

 

[seZereth]

archers are good in weakening and destroying formations/tactics, so to soften up units. so, some collateral might make sense, no?

 

[Willgar]

archers are good in weakening and destroying formations/tactics, so to soften up units. so, some collateral might make sense, no?

Yep but maybe generate small amounts of "defensive" collaterall damage to the attacking stack . At the moment, using archers to attack melee is pretty pointless. The current 3/5 setup, no withdraw, no metal upgrades or bonuses against melee means almost certain death unless they are on desert or weakened.

Is giving archers the marksmen promotion from tier 1 a really bad idea?

 

[leo.]

Don't know if giving them the ability to do collateral isn't a bit too powerful.
But i like the idea to intercept units. It's easy to scout the enemy and reveal the whole power in 1 turn. But archers shooting down hawks.. hmmm

 

[Willgar]

Don't know if giving them the ability to do collateral isn't a bit too powerful.
But i like the idea to intercept units. It's easy to scout the enemy and reveal the whole power in 1 turn. But archers shooting down hawks.. hmmm

For multiplayer great but the AI doesnt use hawks to scout...

 

[Sureshot]

That is what i would suggest. If they were 2/4 with 25% city defence and available at the same time as Warriors with the same hammer cost, they would be usefull. Also, allowing scouts to upgrade to archers would also be usefull.

personally id like to see that for all base unit types, such that you could make a basic horseman, archer, adept and disciple unit right from the beginning, then you could have only 3 tiers of units. currently those 4 unit classes technically only have 3 tiers anyways, only melee and recon have 4 tiers and the rest borrow their first. id remove the tier 4 melee units in that case as well and put their mechanics in some other way or using them as UUs for champions for some civs (like a berserker as a champion UU for doviello).

 

[leo.]

For multiplayer great but the AI doesnt use hawks to scout...

but archers?

 

[Alzara]

I also think this is an interesting idea, though I suspect that if Kael feels that ranged barrage with archery units would take away from the focus of mages, this would suffer from a similar design problem.

Airships would still be a cool idea though. I suggested them ages ago, then Farmer started a small modmod which included something like that (though I haven't tried this out yet). If you allowed mages to intercept as well as archers/longbowmen etc then airships could be included without detracting from magic users


On a more general topic of the archery line, I like the idea of making some melee techs requiring archery techs (and vice versa). Prior to Kael's changes to add incentives to AI buildings, I used to add GPP towards a great commander to both the archery ranges and bowyers (1 & 2 respectively). What do people think of this?

Al

 

[Alzara]

personally id like to see that for all base unit types, such that you could make a basic horseman, archer, adept and disciple unit right from the beginning, then you could have only 3 tiers of units. currently those 4 unit classes technically only have 3 tiers anyways, only melee and recon have 4 tiers and the rest borrow their first. id remove the tier 4 melee units in that case as well and put their mechanics in some other way or using them as UUs for champions for some civs (like a berserker as a champion UU for doviello).

Hmm I like this idea too

Al