so? now what?

[Maniac]

To give the archery line some builder benefit, perhaps some Birds-related happiness resource could be added, which has an archery tech as TechCityTrade.

 

[mtagge]

I still have my old code lying around (haven't had the time to update it to the latest version of FFH or play either) that lets archers oppfire on enemy troops entering their cultural borders if they are in a fort (any type) or city. It uses the onUnitMove python function so it is a little intensive on some processors, but if someone with the inclination wants to move it to the SDK and tie it into XML tags instead of global defines within the python itself that would be a good compromise and let archers provide a defensive role without making them uber attackers as well.

 

[wig]

I've been meaning to post on a related issue, but this thread seems like the perfect place so I'll just post it here.

I think a big issue with the predominance of the melee line is the uber tech that is Bronze Working. For most civs, it has three major components:

1. Remove Forests
2. Build Training Yards (and Axemen/Swordsmen)
3. Allow Bronze Weapons

The issue I see is that removing forests (#1) is an essential early growth tool, especially since most of the popular maps scripts contain lots of forest. However, in it order to access it you have to research a 3rd tier tech which includes a melee line promotion (#2) and a immediate boost to that line (#3), assuming you have access to copper.

Basically, if I didn't have to research Bronze Working to remove forests, I might not invest in the melee line so often. But since it's almost mandatory (unless you're a tree hugger) and powerful compared to my other option, I almost always end up with melee units as my main fighting force.

I think moving the clear forest ability off the Bronze Working tech would open the game up for some more variety. Put it somewhere in the construction.engineering line, maybe as low as Mining.

 

[onedreamer]

Daladdinn, I think you just need to take a break and play something else for a while

 

[Mailbox]

Why not change the Archery line to "Woodworking" techs and then let those grant:

1) Forest Removal
2) Lumbermills
3) Watermills and Windmills

Not only does it make the later game improvements come a bit earlier, it also gives a much needed boost to the Archery line while making the Bowyers prereq for Engineering make sense (It's a form of Advanced Woodworking).

 

[Kasdar]

Why not change the Archery line to "Woodworking" techs and then let those grant:

1) Forest Removal
2) Lumbermills
3) Watermills and Windmills

Not only does it make the later game improvements come a bit earlier, it also gives a much needed boost to the Archery line while making the Bowyers prereq for Engineering make sense (It's a form of Advanced Woodworking).

I really like this idea

 

[Caradoc]

I would like to see units moving next to Archery units take First Strike damage.

 

[Alzara]

Why not change the Archery line to "Woodworking" techs and then let those grant:

1) Forest Removal
2) Lumbermills
3) Watermills and Windmills

Not only does it make the later game improvements come a bit earlier, it also gives a much needed boost to the Archery line while making the Bowyers prereq for Engineering make sense (It's a form of Advanced Woodworking).

Wow... that could really work. Quite early for lumbermills etc, but simply moving "forest removal" to archery would help balance the game a LOT.

Al

 

[Ringtailed]

I agree that bronze working is too good. It turns all of your str 3 units into str 4 units and lets you chop forests, of which there are way too many at the beginning considering that Erebus was just covered in a sheet of ice. I like the idea of moving chopping trees to mining (or use the woodworking tech idea above), and I must once again question the reasoning behind giving weapons upgrades to warriors. Taking iron weapons away was a good start but they should lose bronze too. Got copper? Build axemen.

I also like the idea of adding a primitive archer available from the beginning. Maybe make it 2/4 +25% city defense and remove city defense bonus from warriors. This should also effectively end warrior rushes because when attacking in the beginning you'd be likely to encounter both archery and melee units so combat3/shock2 isn't a game ender.

 

[wig]

Why not change the Archery line to "Woodworking" techs and then let those grant:

1) Forest Removal
2) Lumbermills
3) Watermills and Windmills

Not only does it make the later game improvements come a bit earlier, it also gives a much needed boost to the Archery line while making the Bowyers prereq for Engineering make sense (It's a form of Advanced Woodworking).

That's a pretty good solution. The archery tree is pretty easy to skip right now; merging some of the improvement capabilities in there would definitely make it more appealing.

In a move the other direction, how about isolating the melee line a little more? Let it stand as the most powerful combat line, but move some of the extras (like forges) off of that tree? It would force a decision whether to increase your combat or production capabilities.

 

[Kasdar]

I also like the idea of adding a primitive archer available from the beginning. Maybe make it 2/4 +25% city defense and remove city defense bonus from warriors. This should also effectively end warrior rushes because when attacking in the beginning you'd be likely to encounter both archery and melee units so combat3/shock2 isn't a game ender.

I agree that an early archer unit would be an excellent idea.

 

[Isaiah]

Why not change the Archery line to "Woodworking" techs and then let those grant:

1) Forest Removal
2) Lumbermills
3) Watermills and Windmills

Not only does it make the later game improvements come a bit earlier, it also gives a much needed boost to the Archery line while making the Bowyers prereq for Engineering make sense (It's a form of Advanced Woodworking).

I like it alot

 

[A_Hamster]

That's a pretty good solution. The archery tree is pretty easy to skip right now; merging some of the improvement capabilities in there would definitely make it more appealing.

In a move the other direction, how about isolating the melee line a little more? Let it stand as the most powerful combat line, but move some of the extras (like forges) off of that tree? It would force a decision whether to increase your combat or production capabilities.

Seconded. Decision points like these are good for a game. Now you have to choose guns or butter, and not get both with one tech.

Also, Mailbox's "Woodworking" tech line idea is a good one, and I hope Team FfH will give it consideration.

 

[psychoak]

I've cut wood with things other than metal tools... If it must go for balance reasons, so be it, but forest removal with the rise of metal weaponry is quite the logical placement from a realism stance. You do not want to try keeping land clear with stone tools. It's a . .. .. .. .. . just keeping the trees out of an area with sharp steel ax. Even with bronze, you're looking at sharpening the poor bastard after just a couple 8 inch diameter trees. Clearing actual forest was a monumental task before metal. Perhaps if you put it with the cavalry line it would make sense, an elephant makes short work of a stump.

 

[MrPopov]

does it make any more sense to still not be able to cut down forests when you can hurl devestating fireballs powerful enough to lay down immense city fortifications to mere rubble?

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

What archers need IMHO is the ability to attack in the fat cross without any risk to the archer itself, that would make them great city defenders and improvement defenders.

@ Alzara: if you wanted me to I could make a modmod to go with my airships that would let archers attack and intercept airships/eachother (although they would have to have a 1 range ranged attack, like the airships do, to attack them).

 

[Gelvan]

try the bombardment ability from warhammer mod, it works that great that there Archers are too powerful.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What archers need IMHO is the ability to attack in the fat cross without any risk to the archer itself, that would make them great city defenders and improvement defenders.

@ Alzara: if you wanted me to I could make a modmod to go with my airships that would let archers attack and intercept airships/eachother (although they would have to have a 1 range ranged attack, like the airships do, to attack them).

Only DOMAIN_AIR units can be intercepted, iirc. I think you would have to edit the SDK if you want archers to be able to intercept each other (and still be able to move on land)

Allowing their ranged attacks while in a fat cross only would also require SDK changes (or using a much more awkward spell rather than the built in ranged attack system)


(When I have time to make my modmod I'm definitely letting archers (and maybe also horsearchers) attack from a tile away, and intercept DOMAIN_AIR units. My only air units though will be bird upgrades, and maybe a Luchuip Zeppelin UU.)

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

I thought they just intercepted any air mission.

Question: If you make interception possible for all domains, will the unit still have to do an air mission to be intercepted?

 

[Willgar]

Why not change the Archery line to "Woodworking" techs and then let those grant:

1) Forest Removal
2) Lumbermills
3) Watermills and Windmills

Not only does it make the later game improvements come a bit earlier, it also gives a much needed boost to the Archery line while making the Bowyers prereq for Engineering make sense (It's a form of Advanced Woodworking).

Neat idea