1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

So really where is this?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Larsenex, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    482
    i played 10000 hours of civ4 without expansions
    i used to be one of the best players in the world

    i think i understand a little bit of what winning civ4 is about
     
  2. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,526
    If you understood that much, then you should have understood that the player is incapable of overcoming the economic advantages of the AI at the start of the game when Axemen come online, and that the way the player became dominant is because the AI frittered its advantages away by building Wonders that would ultimately benefit the player. Also by building units that did not matter. If you didn't understand that, then you were just one of the players who won by rote and didn't really understand what was going on.
     
    whyidie likes this.
  3. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    482
    lol.

    i played against real people, not AIs
     
  4. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,526
    MP in Civ 4 was functionally unplayable at release. The topic is release state. Civ 4 was horrific, and the AI, specifically was. If you want to brag, you'll find a better audience in the Civ 4 forums.
     
    whyidie likes this.
  5. Nefelia

    Nefelia Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    458
    Ah, lol. Civ as an e-sport is a pretty funny concept. :)
     
  6. Helmling

    Helmling Philosopher King

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,679
    Yeah, except that this game is getting great reviews.

    I think we romanticize the past. CiV was super buggy and crash prone at launch. I remember that clearly. IV is so long ago...I don't know, but I think maybe we're thinking of the game IV became, not what it was at launch.

    For my part, I don't see any game breaking problems in this release. I'm hooked and I'm having a blast. Yeah, AI is stupid, sure. But I come to build and the new mechanics make that an interesting challenge.
     
    Nefelia, narmox and whyidie like this.
  7. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,526
    Stack combat was a real mess in Civ 4. I don't mean what it became, which was still simple. I mean what it was. Before the Community got its mitts on it, siege weapons were simply never used because they didn't do collateral damage to a stack when Civ 4 released. And since Cities didn't defend themselves, you always just went for the things that would kill the Garrison Stack or enemy stacks. Even after Warlords released, the AI couldn't fight worth a damn. I was Shaka Zulu at the time, and Zulus only came out after Warlords. I was fighting Monte and he was sending UNSTACKED Riflemen. So I picked them off one at a time.

    And since I could Draft and the AI never did, I was staring down size 10 AI stacks with size 30 and size 50 stacks. It was ridiculous.

    So it's not only that 4 was bugged and unbalanced at launch, it was crappy for a fairly long time afterwards. It just felt good because Civ 3 after Conquests introduced Armies was just ludicrous (basically using an Army was insta-win on any difficulty).

    I mean, back in the day, the Cottage Economy was the only economy and people were complaining that all Civ 4 was was cottaging every tile in sight.
     
  8. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2016
    Messages:
    603
    I meant the Steam reviews ofc (not the official shills), which were at ~75 % positive when I last checked. I'd call that a game with significant issues.

    Civ V was a terrible game at launch, and is a slightly crappy one still, after all the patches and expansions (mostly due to 1upt). To be fair, Civ IV was a long time ago, but I can't remember anywhere near the same level of backlash as with either the Civ V or Civ VI release. There was some criticism, sure, as with every new release. It was mostly about the AI, iirc. Compared to Civ III though, even that was stellar (you could simply empty your city of units and make the AI 'dance around' back and forth in Civ III :crazyeye:).

    I agree that the problems don't break the game (other than public multiplayer, due to the exploits). But they do start to wear one out after a while, and right now that while is about two weeks long, not months or years, as I'd like it to be. Eyes out for that elusive first patch... :borg:

    Off topic: Please make some more Philosopher King stories about Civ VI! ;) Those were some of the best Civ stories that I've ever read, and I'm sure many people would agree with that assessment. :thumbsup:
     
  9. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,521
    Location:
    UK
    You don't remember because it was such a long time ago.

    You don't remember because games weren't scrutinised as heavily.

    You don't remember because games reached less people than they do nowadays.

    There are many reasons why there was less of X, less of Y, Z years in the past. Nobody's memories are perfect, and actually to that end someone recently made a thread cataloguing CFC reactions to Civ 4. Let's just say there was a lot of negative commments made :p

    Sorry for the late reply, but I don't know what you expect me to say to your expectation that you can pick up some modder extensions via GitHub and drop them into the source for a new engine and dataset. This is precisely what I was talking about r.e. the divide between modders and developers.

    I have no idea about your experience or competence, so I'm making no assumptions, but I want to stress that it's not as easy certainly as you're making it out to be.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,238
    I quite enjoyed Colonization, in fact I loved it.
    But if I played it today I may just see the flaws in it....maybe a bit like the Civ IV fanatics.
     
  11. JtW

    JtW Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    Poland
    Are you serious? I've played a lot of strategy games, and ALL OF THEM had better AI at launch. The AI is Civ 6 is a sick joke. I don't care about the rest of the features as long as the AI doesn't really exist.
     
    kornelm1978 likes this.
  12. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    65
    Are you making the claim that Civ 4 multi-player worked well upon initial release of Civ 4? Wow, that's different from my memory!
     
    Nefelia and whyidie like this.
  13. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,526
    We've already pointed out that a number of strategy games have bad AI - at least as bad as Civ 6's, and at least 2 of the previous entries in this series actually had worse AI at launch. Civ4's AI was atrocious at launch, and remained atrocious until well past Warlords, and arguably a little past BTS. If you haven't played Civ 4, I think you might find it for cheap, and it's a pretty good game now.
     
    Nefelia and whyidie like this.
  14. fatmanlittleboy

    fatmanlittleboy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Tierra del Fuego
    What an incredibly arrogant post. So we're just supposed to roll over and take it because there's no perfect game?

    This is what's wrong with the gaming industry, and indeed all of America. We used to strive for perfection, but now it seems "half-assed" is an acceptable answer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
    JtW likes this.
  15. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    482
    no. i'm merely explaining why civ4 was not broken at a fundamental game structure level like civ6 is

    bugs get fixed with patches pretty regularly. design flaws generally don't

    this myth that civ4 needed expansions before it was good is complete nonsense spewed by feature fans and not strategists
     
    Jeckel likes this.
  16. JtW

    JtW Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    Poland
    I've played all Civ games except for BE, thank you very much. But I haven't played Civ 4 at launch so I'll take your word for it. Civ 5's AI was much better at launch, though. It was still very poor, but the AI at least knew that you can use units to attack and not to shuffle around aimlessly.
     
  17. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    65
    I'm sorry, but I lost track of your argument then. You claim that the initial buggy AI didn't bother you, because you played real folks rather than AI, but that couldn't have been at initial release since the multi-player features were too badly broken at release - it took them a while as I recall.

    Civ 4 was badly unbalanced with numerous exploits and bugs at release. It was also a very much simpler game than Civ 6. It became a good game when they were able to balance things out. Civ 4 needed the balancing that the additional features in later expansions gave. As I recall, collateral damage was such a needed feature.
     
    whyidie likes this.
  18. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,450
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tasmania
    The changes made by the Vox Populi team are much more extensive than that.
    When the source code for the DLL was released numerous changes to AI functions were closely examined and fixed, even new ones added, so that the core mechanics of Civ V, as played in Vox Populi, are much more than what was released by Firaxis.
    I haven't yet seen the code for Civ VI but I will put good money on there being similar, if not identical, AI routines included in it. This is what I am talking about. The core code that defines the AI is in the DLL and a small team over a period of 2 years has produced a much better AI than a fully funded software company has in 5 years with many more coders in their employ.

    Assuming they are still coding in C++, and even if they're not, examining the code changes would provide them with all they need even if they didn't take the repo and merge it into their own source. Coding for a game may not be easy but it isn't rocket science either, anyone with a modicum of coding can see what needs to be done and do it, the fact Firaxis hasn't tells me they don't value a working AI too highly.
     
  19. Ricci

    Ricci Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    540
    Ehhhhh.. 1UPT is such a broken mechanic these days. Proven again, and again.. .. and recently again. :sleep:
    On the other hand, devs themselves admitted how much time they actually spend reading input in the forums. So, for what it`s worth.
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,526
    Coulda fooled me. They certainly did a lot of shuffling around while I shot them to death. And they did that while also occasionally suicidally attacking invincible positions.
     

Share This Page