So What Happened British Empire?

[Dominico]

How about we come rolling down to York again?

Just like to point out William never sacked york in real life. Thats Mel "English hater" Gibsons version. (why does he hate english?)

Also, though im not so sure about this one, isnt the blue facepaint totally wrong too?

Interesting discussion though!

 

[sw99]

I just wish you Scots and Englishmen would get along, I mean you went and ruled the world together, I am proud to be descended from both your races!

The english get along with the scots just fine, we just get a bit puzzled when the odd couple of people get all angry about perceived wrongs from 3 centuries ago. It's worth mentioning that any "subjugation" of the scots was done to the english subjects too, that's what happened in monarchies.

 

[Lacaixa]

sw99..... I imagine you don't live far away from me. About 2 miles off J29 M1.

 

[GeneralMatt]

The english get along with the scots just fine, we just get a bit puzzled when the odd couple of people get all angry about perceived wrongs from 3 centuries ago. It's worth mentioning that any "subjugation" of the scots was done to the english subjects too, that's what happened in monarchies.

I meant more the guys in this thread. You were not getting overly grumpy with each other, though, but still you were not agreeing on certain matters that I wish you could.

 

[Moonlit Knight]

Seems like you didnt actually read what I said.... or more significantly, read what you wanted to in it.

I said that you were given "partial unity" - even if that was not complete unity. Which is still a damn sight more than Wales ever got.... or India... or wherever else.

Your people made the decision at the time, you should rail against them, not against the English who could have done a lot worse. Not that I am in any way supporting or condoning what the English enacted on their subjugated peoples.

You also seem happy to remove the blame from all the other peoples of the empire yet somehow stack all of the blame at the doors of the English. That's just nationalism speaking, it certainly isn't facts. There were plenty of Scots who drooled at the chance to take part in the international plundering that colonialism was.

I know its hard to accept hard facts about the country you love, but dont try to push away all the blame onto another country.

Whatever the case, this is again becoming a platform to bash another group's nation instead of discussing the thread at hand.

If you want to persist in addressing and decrying English domination of Scotland and the subsequent subjugation, why don't you go and make a thread specifically on that in the Off Topic forum.... this one is for BtS and is about a game.

I can't wait for Scotland to get its full independance. For all the blustering about how much they contribute, the average non-Scottish British taxpayer has to subsidise the Scots heavily, and the Scots offer little to the overall economy. Let them go I say.

 

[Moonlit Knight]

Just like to point out William never sacked york in real life. Thats Mel "English hater" Gibsons version. (why does he hate english?)

Also, though im not so sure about this one, isnt the blue facepaint totally wrong too?

Interesting discussion though!

It's amazing the impact that movies have on people's subconcious and just how people really do believe them to be factual. After "Braveheart" there was a spate of English people getting beaten up in Scotland, by brave Patriotic Scottish gangs who decided (after watching Braveheart) that the English were scum and treated Scotland like scum etc.

What these thicko yobbo's never grasped was that Braveheart is a pure work of fiction. William Wallace was no brave hero. He was the equivalent of a modern day football hooligan who had a bit of charisma and got other thugs to join his gang.

Most of the movie Braveheart was . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. The Irish and Scots NEVER teamed up. Wallace never got anywhere near York. Wallace's wife was never murdered (the reason he became an outlaw was because he got into a fight with someone, killed them, and hid out at his Grandma's....but that wouldn't make very good folklore movie telling would it? lol!) and basically he was barbaric.....like many of that era (including many English too).

I've never quite understood the concept of nationalism anyway. IMO you can't be proud of a circumstance and the country you were born in, the colour you were born etc etc you have no control over and therefore only a foolish person is proud of it.

 

[Moonlit Knight]

Firstly, I don't consider Civ to be a simulation of: history, warfare, civilization, etc... I just consider it to be a strategy game with its own context. So historical innacuracies, etc, don't bother me.

But out of interest why did they exclude the British Empire and include the English Empire?

I'm fairly sure the British Empire was the largest empire in history. OK, you could argue that in Elizabeth's time the British Empire did not technically exist. But Victoria and Churchill are certainly British Empire leaders.

Is the reason for English, and not British, inclusion just the general ignorance that exists in the US about England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland being individual countries. You know, where they equate England as being Britain?

Technically it was the English empire. Scotland and Wales were part of the English empire....just a little closer to home than most.

 

[Paul Saunders]

Technically it was the English empire. Scotland and Wales were part of the English empire....just a little closer to home than most.

Technically there's no such country as England. It's part of the United Kingdom, commonly known as Britain. Although many of us like to think of Scotland, Wales and England as separate countries, they're not. Britain created the empire, not England. Granted, England started it all, but once they joined with Wales and Scotland, they became Britain, and that's who the empire belongs to. The other countries in the empire are not part of Britain.

Having grown up in the UK, I've heard endless references to the British Empire during my life, especially at school. I never heard the phrase "English Empire" until I bought Civilization. It just isn't called that.

Google "English Empire" (in quotes) and "British Empire". English Empire has 62,300 entries. British Empire has 2,060,000 entries. Nuff said.

For example:
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/

 

[Paul Saunders]

I'd be fine with it being called the British Empire but I don't know if the welsh or scottish would really feel that much better about it, they tend to associate british with english anyway.

Eh? I'm Welsh and I'm also British. I certainly don't associate being British with being English.

The scots (I don't know about the welsh contribution) were a great asset in our empire building days...

Ever watched the film Zulu? They may have had English officers, but the troops involved were Welsh.

Paul

 

[Lacaixa]

Ever watched the film Zulu? They may have had English officers, but the troops involved were Welsh.

Paul

One of the best war films ever made.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1csr0dxalpI

 

[vibratingsky]

I would tend to argue that if it were not for that Scottish contribution, particularly in the field of battle, the atlas would not have been anywhere near as pink as it once was.

Scotland held England to ransom while it was at war with France and so a more equal deal was struck where the Scots agreed not to attack England if England shared its trade rights with Scotland. The Act of Union was a truely ingenious piece of opportunism which has seen Scotland get the better half of the deal for three centries.
I wonder why Scots complain so much about England sometimes, the greviences only make common Londoners (in my experience) want to be rid of Scotland. Sad thing is that if Scotland was totally independant it couldnt pay for the services it provides to its people causing a huge change in the standard of living for people north of the boarder. The resulting inequality would be disasterous for Scotland and consequentially for England who would have to find work or police the boarders to prevent migrant population settling.

Scotland is a beautiful place (I lived there for 9years now in Wales, born England) but I prefer to think of myself as British and find nationalism a harmful concept.

 

[vibratingsky]

The british empire = english empire. The english thought calling their empire the british empire would disguise their supremacy thus making the subject peoples less anti-empire. Really Wales, Scotland, etc are every bit as much conquored subjects as India and the rest were.

Interestingly India was never 'conqured', just as Scotland was never conqured.
The East India Company (a British company) set up trade routes and was hugely sucessful, it employed many indians and just through normal company growth ended up controling huge numbers of people under its employ. India actually asked for Britain to run the rest of its country as it seemed to be doing a great job

The reason the British Empire worked when most other global empires did not (e.g. Spanish, French empires) was because Britain treated its colonies with respect. The colonies governed themselves and conscriped their own troops, really the only thing Britain did was oversee the progress and trade with them.

Spain on the other hand went to its colonies to rob its people of gold and gems, once the treasures had been plundered there was no reason to bother with its empire and it subsequently crumbled.

Ironically Britain would never have been as influencial as it has been accross the globe if it wasn't for the American declaration of Independence. It was then that Britain learned that it was impossible to win a gurella war (or exercise military might overseas) and encouraged self governing colonies rather than British governed colonies to form strong trade relations.

 

[vibratingsky]

Originally Posted by Soneji
Care to argue differently other than post some silly smilies?

Look at the mess they left India in after their hasty departure, the slavery trade in Africa and other misseries, Highland clearances.. the English do not have such a rosy history imo. Your own continent as well...

India was left a mess, the result of trying to hand over power too quickly, I like to think that the commonwealth and British politics over the last 60years has been to help India flourish as it has through technological aid and military resources.

Britain was the first country to abolish slavery. To be the first to take a moral stance like this would be a modern equilivent of going totally 'green' while everyone else is determined not to, or disarming your nuclear arsonal and destroying your means to manufacture nukes again.

highland clearances...
The irony was that 1000's of Scots emigrated to Australia and cleared the Aboriginies off their land to farm sheep of all things (true). Others went out west in the US to carry on their farming traditions on land belionging to the Native Americans.

I very much doubt England has a 'rosy' history, as you wittly point out, the world uesd slaves since ancient egypt, people were treated very poorly in most of the world sometimes being cleared off their ancient lands, civil war (e.g. in india) leaves deep wounds in a countries culture and history. It would be hard to find any country who has a 'rosy' past if we dig deep.

 

[vibratingsky]

Structural Racism is alive and well and living in Scotland. It is directed at the Scottish People and emanates from relic power structures which are the surviving legacy of the British Empire.

Can you explain how Scots are treated less fairly than other British subjects? I can think of many advantages to being Scottish but no disadvantages aside from the Scottish culture to drink, eat fatty foods, and smoke themselves into an early grave (a vice much of the western world shares to a lesser extent).

Advantages to being Scottish include: Greater preportion of revinue from taxes per head of population then the English of which half was raised in London alone.
Cleaner Air, greener areas, less congestion, better natural quality of life.
Scotland has its own parlament, England does not.
Representation in British parlament allowing Scots to vote on matters concerning only English people where English MP's are forbidden to vote on Scottish issues.

 

[Dnomal]

Soneji, I don't know what world you're living in, but it DOES seem like an interesting one.

Union of the crown, what does an outside observer expect? Well obviously the larger country England put it's monarch on the thrown of Scotland, oh wait, no... it was the Scottish Monarch who came down and ruled England and Scotland, (in a a way Scotland conquered England).

Scottish "cheated" at the act of Union.
Fact: Scotland was facing bankrupacy after a failed colonisation attempt (Scotland innocent really?), and was facing a complete collapse, like catastrophic, the English offer the Scots a vas sum of Gold to bail them out, they can also trade with the English Empire, and send representatives to the new Parliament of Britain (in which the Scootish get greater representation in terms of population than the English), and the catch.

History is complicated face it, I like to think of myself as British (i'm half scottish 1/8 welsh and rest english)

To say that the British Empire was "evil", and that conquests and Imperialsm was part of a long master plan for world domination is ridiculous. The Empire was based on the aqqusition of profit, not land or slave peoples. The conqust of India for example, was a British company employing mercanaries to snatch up small seperate Indian states, that had broken free from the Mughal Empire. It wasn't like the British showed up and said "well time to conquer, lads charge!", it was a gradula process, it wasn't until the Mutiny that the government took over.

I think there's one reason why it's English not British, Elizabeth, she was the queen of England and Wales, not Scotland, and since Britain is known as England, Wales and Scotland it would be stupid.

(However if you look at the origin of the world Britain it's interesting, Britain comes from Britannia the Roman name for the Roman province in Britain modern day England and Wales, Britannia was the name given by a Greek Explorer who may or may not have found his way there. So technically working from the defintion of the word calling the Enlgish Empire as displayed in game the British Empire would be fine.)

-Oh also people complaining about Europeans not knowing about American history, the original comment "i bet you don't even know who Oliver Cromwell was", IS important to American history. He was a puritain, and promoted puritain values, and helped them emigrate, he was Britain's one and only dictator, or "protector" as he called himself. After he died, and then was later put on trial for treason [yes that's right trying a dead man, he was sentenced to death aswell lol], more Puritain's emigrated because Puritain's reminded non-Puritains of the time of the Protector (who they supported), who'd even banned christm, drinking and any celebrations.

This all led to America's decleration of independence, and the war of the same name. So not knowing this kinda stuff is odd. I don't think many Europeans would expect Americans to know about obscure european history like the Franco-Prussian war (1870), or something, but we know about the US Civil war etc. so we do expect Americans to learn/know about the big wars (Napoleonic, WW1 etc.....

To sum up, stop complaining Scottish nationalists, because if you're so busy hating the English who's gunna hate the French???

Ok i think i've just insulted everyone now. lol.

 

[GeneralMatt]

One of the best war films ever made.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1csr0dxalpI

Hahaha, just watched that one myself, a masterpiece! Though I do not think that the regiment was Welsh in real life though, but I might be wrong.

 

[Soneji]

To sum up, stop complaining Scottish nationalists, because if you're so busy hating the English who's gunna hate the French???

Ok i think i've just insulted everyone now. lol.

Not insulted! Just having a little fun! I'm not complainng per se, merely adding in a devils advocate. A small reflection on my games in which England always feature (custom)..

And yes I am aware of the economic background to the AoU as well, from both sides..

 

[Paul Saunders]

Hahaha, just watched that one myself, a masterpiece! Though I do not think that the regiment was Welsh in real life though, but I might be wrong.

One of the most celebrated moments in Welsh military history
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3419343.stm

However...

Welshmen at Rorke's Drift
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/myths/myths.htm

 

[sourboy]

Would someone like to explain, in carefully constructed, logical sentences, why to the best of their knowledge "England" was chosen over "Britain"?

I'm your Huckleberry.

"England" is a reference to the regional Anglo peoples that were around for many hundreds of years, and is derived from the Olde English language. "Britain" was a Roman reference to the isle that the English dwelled upon, and due to the Roman influence, became a common alternate description of the English peoples.

Also, when describing people from England, "English" is a socially accepted name. However, if the Civ were to be called "Britain", "British" is a label that could cause feedback, as it has a different modern day meaning. In terms of the UK, it includes N. Ireland, Scotland, and Wales -- with are Celtic in origin, and well... already represented in terms of the Celts Civ.

Sure, "Britain" is a reasonable name for the Civ, but when Firaxis had to pick only one name, I'm sure the above reasoning was likely the deciding factor, albeit lightly weighted.

 

[sourboy]

why did they exclude the British Empire and include the English Empire?

Maybe because the British Empire was a combination of lands, whereas the English existed before and after. To duplicate a group of people would be to add about 80 threads of arguing to CFC, much like those of the HRE now...