Social Evolution

[Lexicus]

If that was the best they could do, it's because they're all so corrupt that's the game. That's the critique. You got a solution?

Participate in your local communist party and labor union movement

 

[Gori the Grey]

How does law enforcement work under communism? Don't actually answer that (it would be a derail here). I'll dig up the "All things Communism" thread and ask it there if I really want to know.

 

[Lexicus]

How does law enforcement work under communism?

I don't know. Since human social evolution seems mostly path-dependent it would probably not be too dissimilar from what we have now, except that certain obvious problems like the criminal system delivering drastically different outcomes based on skin color and people being rich enough to basically be immune to the civil system because they can drown anyone else in lawyers wouldn't exist.

I'd also say I think juries selected by sortition as the finders of fact is already functionally communist in most respects. Drawing on what we know from the sources about the procedures in ancient democratic poleis, I'd say you'd probably see a trend toward less professional involvement in the legal system, more emphasis on simple laws that can be easily understood by most or all citizens, perhaps larger juries that act as finders of both law and fact.

That sort of thing would happen at the level of local communities though; what we would think of as "federal law" would look probably more similar to what we have now, both institutionally and with respect to procedure.

 

[Farm Boy]

I don't think I would like shooting people that much.

 

[Hygro]

I don't think I would like shooting people that much.

might make you a better cop

 

[Farm Boy]

might make you a better cop

In a communist revolution? I don't think I'd like getting shot any better.

 

[Remorseless1]

Seriously, has there actually been a real communist government? I've read Das Kapital and other writings by Marx and Engels. They advocated for the abolition of states and governments, rejected capitalism in all forms and pushed for syndicates of laborers replace business. In my view, every government that has claimed to communist are in actuality brutal authoritarian states, i.e. "the People will now rule, and we are the People" kind of thing.

 

[Hygro]

No one even knows how. I try asking here, and it's a deadend. Forcing the issue has always come with self defeating costs and relies on overt and upfront terrorism, which should be a clue. But progressive reforms until our world is radically different that something worthy emerges is pretty smart.

 

[E.man]

Seriously, has there actually been a real communist government? I've read Das Kapital and other writings by Marx and Engels. They advocated for the abolition of states and governments, rejected capitalism in all forms and pushed for syndicates of laborers replace business. In my view, every government that has claimed to communist are in actuality brutal authoritarian states, i.e. "the People will now rule, and we are the People" kind of thing.

The short answer is no.
They get stuck in Socialist state, and tend to Authoritarian from there.

Communes don't work on smaller scale either. It could be argued the closest is Israeli Kibbutzim, and that's because they have a greater goal as a guide.

 

[Lexicus]

No one even knows how. I try asking here, and it's a deadend. Forcing the issue has always come with self defeating costs and relies on overt and upfront terrorism, which should be a clue. But progressive reforms until our world is radically different that something worthy emerges is pretty smart.

I like to imagine a group of posters in the 1550s who post by nailing scribbled papers to the door of their local church, arguing about how capitalism could happen and whether it was possible

 

[Gori the Grey]

Then you should look into broadside ballads. Along with Luther, the original "posts." And often very politically engaged.

Take your communism talk to the communism containment thread. I"m sorry my outloud musing started this derail. This thread is for talking about Trump being indicated. Twice. So far.

 

[Lexicus]

Then you should look into broadside ballads. Along with Luther, the original "posts." And often very politically engaged.

Take your communism talk to the communism containment thread. I"m sorry my outloud musing started this derail. This thread is for talking about Trump being indicated. Twice. So far.

Posting is much older than that. There was a time when you posted by chiselling the marble wall of the local temple.

 

[Farm Boy]

The short answer is no.
They get stuck in Socialist state, and tend to Authoritarian from there.

Communes don't work on smaller scale either. It could be argued the closest is Israeli Kibbutzim, and that's because they have a greater goal as a guide.

The upper great plains, both US and Canada maintain a Hutterite population of ~50k.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Posting is much older than that. There was a time when you posted by chiselling the marble wall of the local temple.

Well, true enough, there was graffiti in ancient Rome. That's a little shy of a post. And it's not a post. So I'm sticking with broadside ballads.

Don't make me write one to get us back on the topic of Trump being indicted and off of communism. (B/c I've never written one before).

 

[Hygro]

I like to imagine a group of posters in the 1550s who post by nailing scribbled papers to the door of their local church, arguing about how capitalism could happen and whether it was possible

Well that's the point, why would we even think they were talking capitalism? What emerged surely wasn't something theorized well in advance. Communism is quite obviously an intellectual reaction to capitalism, a feature of capitalism, and not an emergent system. But it informs progressive iteration, as does science and philosophy more generally.

 

[Lexicus]

Well that's the point, why would we even think they were talking capitalism? What emerged surely wasn't something theorized well in advance. Communism is quite obviously an intellectual reaction to capitalism, a feature of capitalism, and not an emergent system. But it informs progressive iteration, as does science and philosophy more generally.

Like I keep saying, communism basically just means stuff we think is good.

 

[Gori the Grey]

This all belongs in our Clown Car thread!

Stop posting in the wrong threads, guys!

By the way, once the smoke clears on the question regarding on whose initiative the plans for invading Iran were developed (Trump's), it's going to sink in to everyone around the world, that the US President can ask for a plan of attack against any nation and the US Military will obediently draft that right up. Now, on some level, everybody already knows that is true. He's commander in chief; they're required to do his bidding. But this is going to make it feel way more concrete. And we're going to lose standing in the world that it was actually done once, at the insistence of this irresponsible clown.

 

[Gori the Grey]

*In Number Two voice* "Ahem... that also... already... has happened."

In the voice of one of the women that the killers in Fargo slept with: "More than usual even."

No, I'm not responsible for the thread derail. I positively commanded Lex not to answer my question unless I asked it in the Communism Quarantine thread.

 

[Lexicus]

In the voice of one of the women that the killers in Fargo slept with: "More than usual even."

No, I'm not responsible for the thread derail. I commanded Lex not to answer my question unless I asked it in the Communism Quarantine thread.

I only obey commands from the legitimately constituted authorities! You didn't win majority support from the local workers' council!
[Saruman!Theoden voice] You have no power here, Gori the Grey!

Anyway, anyone seen the clip of Trump going "I did everything right and they indicted me!"?

Classic

 

[Hygro]

Like I keep saying, communism basically just means stuff we think is good.

Ideally. A lot of when you ask what people want will say "well, not x, amirite?!" and never visualize a better future. Without some kind of visualization, there's no goal. Without a goal, there's no leading, just following what already is. Which is the visions, goals, and leadings of others, which is itself most weighted by incentives to those rare few with the ability to act.

I have lots of little reforms that I think can cascade into big ones. Here's one off the top of my head, if a company goes against productivity to control its labor force, such as companies that lose productivity by forcing their workforce return to office, they get fined massively. After all, domination of labor time in a feudalist relationship is the bedrock of the abuse inherent in our system. And it is expressed in particular ways, that can be fought with its own field of economics.

Here's another, direct depositing with the Fed.

Ok I got a third, two years per couple of paid parental leave, straight from social security.

Here's a fourth, commercial entities cannot own residential property except for controlled exceptions. Hurts liquidity but also keeps prices and monopolizing low.

These are old ideas, mostly, but also off the top of my head.