Deportation: Millions must go!

Yeah, arguments that Americans cannot do farm labor fall very flat with me. It makes us sound helplessly frail and hopelessly decadent. This is not accurate. There is plenty of strength here.

This is the ugly face of liberalism: want of servants, with supposed physical weakness of a group I happen to belong to as the justification. Nah.
It's only "liberalism" maybe in the US. It's a slur elsewhere. Nothing to do with liberalism.

Sort out you effing country without railroading perfecly good words and concepts perhaps? You're almost as bad as the Russians and Chinese in the art of emptying language of actual content.
 
Can we also blame the Americans for the fact that literally now means the exact opposite of what it used to mean, plus the exact opposite of that, at the same time?

Can they deport the people responsible for that too? Come on Trump, make English great again. Put Hulk Hogan in charge of the English language, he's a scholar.
 
Yeah, arguments that Americans cannot do farm labor fall very flat with me. It makes us sound helplessly frail and hopelessly decadent. This is not accurate. There is plenty of strength here.

This is the ugly face of liberalism: want of servants, with supposed physical weakness of a group I happen to belong to as the justification. Nah.
The chile farms in NM are waiting for you to come and pick their crop.
 
So why will immigrants do it, if it's too crappy of jobs for Americans? Because they come from worse. Because they have the physical toughness that Americans mostly don't any longer. Because this is their best chance to improve their family's situation and their own.
Great post. One thing I disagree with though is the part about Americans' "physical toughness". I think its just about the pay/benefits. Americans are plenty strong/tough enough to perform farm labour. I think that Americans would do farm labour en-masse if the job paid enough to make it worth their while. But as you've pointed out, it can't. That's why Americans don't want the job.

Americans do plenty of crappy, dirty, dangerous, strenuous jobs... its just that they get paid more to do them. Anyone who has worked in fast food knows its a pretty crappy, dirty, demeaning job. Its relatively easy/simple, and not too physically demanding, but its still crappy. Same for retail. Retail isn't dirty, or necessarily dangerous, or all that strenuous for most positions, the exception being inventory, where you are doing dock/shelving/stocking work, but in any case retail is still a pretty crappy job. I've done both and they both suck. The difference is that people working in retail or fast food get paid more than farm workers.

Another example is that lots of Americans work in construction and landscaping/snow removal. With those jobs, they aren't just dirty, they are also dangerous, and physically demanding, especially if you are working outdoors in extreme heat/cold, with machinery, cutting trees, using power tools, climbing things like scaffolds or trees, etc. You also have to deal with stinging/biting insects, vermin and animals. But again, the difference is that the pay is better than farm labour. Again, I've done both and they both suck, but you get paid more than farm labour. That's why plenty of people do it.

One last example I know you will appreciate is package handling and delivery driving. I've done both of those jobs and they are very physically demanding, tough jobs and they can also be pretty dangerous. I've seen guys get crushed and injured by package avalanches in the belly of the trailer. Working on the unloading side of the dock is tough, but the loading side is insane. Especially during the holidays. The pace is bananas and the physical demands are brutal. I would leave my shift every night drenched from head to toe in sweat. Loading trailers had physical demands comparable to being a competitive athlete. But again, the pay is better than retail or fast food and way better than farm labour, so people are willing to deal with the physical demands of the job.

Same thing for delivery driver. That job is tough and very physical, since you are lifting packages all day and walking up and down stairs, driveways, hallways all day, jumping in and out of the truck all day etc. Also, it can be pretty dangerous out there on the road, especially with a job where you need to make all your stops to finish your route. You have to drive pretty fast, and cut some corners, use shortcuts, etc. Lots of close calls and minor accidents doing that job. You also have to deal with dogs, which can also be dangerous. However, once again, the pay is better, so you can find plenty of folks to do the job.
 
Most immigrant farm labor I imagine has to do with just the picking of crops. Perhaps not difficult but tedious and weather-dependent (certainly not dangerous like the warehouse work noted above), and probably best if the whole system was automated eventually. So which I appreciate the idea that, yeah, most Americans don't want to do this work, it's probably because they rightfully see it as going out of style...
 
I think that wheat rice and oats can be harvested by machine, but many crop picking jobs can't be automated because the crops are too delicate or the way the crop has to be extracted is too intricate or complicated to be done by a machine... at least for now. I think strawberries, chili peppers, apples and olives for example can not be harvested by machine and have to be hand picked.

There's also a catch-22. As long as there is sufficiently cheap labor to do the harvesting, there is no need to spend the resources to automate. If farm labour cost went up significantly, there would be a stronger incentive to innovate ways to automate the process. So if there was no one willing to do the job for the wages offered, then the wages would increase, but then the prices would be too high and the demand would plummet. So then farms would be forced to automate, to reduce costs so that they could lower prices... but then they would lay off their workers.
 
The chile farms in NM are waiting for you to come and pick their crop.
Maybe next summer. I'm looking to go West, eventually, July, ideally. Vegas hopefully, and I'm not opposed to doing agricultural work.
Another example is that lots of Americans work in construction and landscaping/snow removal. With those jobs, they aren't just dirty, they are also dangerous, and physically demanding
strenuous for most positions, the exception being inventory, where you are doing dock/shelving/stocking work,
We had much different retail experiences. Worked a high volume store, and stocking was definitely more difficult than landscaping. As a freight stocker, I moved approximately 10 tons nightly. 700 boxes, each weighing around 15-30lbs. This was the average, though I did more whenever someone I liked needed it done.
 
I've done farm laboring. It's not the worst thing I've but close.

We could pace ourselves though and chose our hours with reason. To hot at midday go for swim work evening.

Fruit wasn't to bad except heat. Vegetables suck.
 
Most immigrant farm labor I imagine has to do with just the picking of crops. Perhaps not difficult but tedious and weather-dependent (certainly not dangerous like the warehouse work noted above), and probably best if the whole system was automated eventually. So which I appreciate the idea that, yeah, most Americans don't want to do this work, it's probably because they rightfully see it as going out of style...


Another aspect that I neglected to mention earlier is that an aspect of these jobs which makes them worse than so many other jobs is the timing aspects of them. There are farm labor jobs which are effectively full time year round jobs. But then there are the jobs that migrant farm workers take. And this is mostly just the harvests. So they have to move from farm to farm as the crops of each farm are ready for harvest. And then work exceptionally long days for those brief times of the year. And then be out of work for the rest of the year. This is also a major aspect of making farm labor unattractive as a regular job.
 
Can we also blame the Americans for the fact that literally now means the exact opposite of what it used to mean, plus the exact opposite of that, at the same time?

Can they deport the people responsible for that too? Come on Trump, make English great again. Put Hulk Hogan in charge of the English language, he's a scholar.
"Literally" as a figurative intensifier has been a part of language for several centuries, you can blame people like Jane Austen and Mark Twain.
 
Yeah, arguments that Americans cannot do farm labor fall very flat with me. It makes us sound helplessly frail and hopelessly decadent. This is not accurate. There is plenty of strength here.

This is the ugly face of liberalism: want of servants, with supposed physical weakness of a group I happen to belong to as the justification. Nah.
Stoop labor pays minimum wage its not so much the fact that Mericans can't do the work its the lack of willingness and desperation to do the work. Also why would you do stoop labor when you can just work at Wendys or Walmart? Not to mention the hazards, pesticides etc. Minimum wage in California is soon to be $16 you can get a job at In and Out for $22 an hour (59K for a manage position) what would your choice be? Mericans have options.
 
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Stoop labor pays minimum wage its not so much the fact that Mericans can't do the work its the lack of willingness and desperation to do the work. Also why would you do stoop labor when you can just work at Wendys or Walmart? Not to mention the hazards, pesticides etc. Minimum wage in California is soon to be $16 you can get a job at In and Out for $22 an hour (59K for a manage position) what would your choice be? Mericans have options.
I've worked retail. What you're paid does not compensate you for the emotional pain. I'm serious.

Farm labor, by contrast, is honest and ethical. You just pick food for people to eat. There is a benefit to that: you're dead certain you're a productive member of society.

Money I don't really care about. I only care insofar as it enables relationships, and I'm not looking for one at present. I'm looking to move to somewhere people aren't so joyless.
 
I've worked retail. What you're paid does not compensate you for the emotional pain. I'm serious.

Farm labor, by contrast, is honest and ethical. You just pick food for people to eat. There is a benefit to that: you're dead certain you're a productive member of society.

Money I don't really care about. I only care insofar as it enables relationships, and I'm not looking for one at present. I'm looking to move to somewhere people aren't so joyless.

Have you done farm work?

It's kinda hard.
 
I did some woofing when I was in my 20s, I thought it would be swashbuckling and romantic, it was pretty s***

I wouldn't mind having an automated vertical garden greenhouse someday, picking vegetables myself, nah I'm good
 
"Literally" as a figurative intensifier has been a part of language for several centuries, you can blame people like Jane Austen and Mark Twain.

Okay, so does that mean they can no longer be deported or what
 
Heavy machine operators seem to travel from site to site for work for 9 - 10 months a year, make a solid annual wage in that time, then get laid off annually for unemployment to provide supplemental income for the gap.

Sort of like Walmart and employee benefits coming from the government, but with higher wages.
 
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We had much different retail experiences. Worked a high volume store, and stocking was definitely more difficult than landscaping. As a freight stocker, I moved approximately 10 tons nightly. 700 boxes, each weighing around 15-30lbs. This was the average, though I did more whenever someone I liked needed it done.
I think you misread my post. We did not have much different retail positions. I worked inventory, just like you, apparently (along with other retail positions). Inventory is the most strenuous retail position.

I said that retail is NOT physically strenuous for MOST positions, EXCEPT for the inventory positions, where you are working in the back, on the dock, stocking shelves, breaking down pallets, etc. Being an inventory worker is the MOST physically demanding position in a retail setting. Go back and re-read my post. I think you are confused about what I said.

Also, how strenuous retail-inventory is, versus landscaping/snow removal is highly situational. Doing inventory as a picker at say, an AMAZON distribution center is probably a lot tougher than trimming hedges all day, but driving a push mower up and down steep hills all day is tougher than stocking shelves at small mom-and pop grocer. There's also the indoors versus outdoors factor and everything that goes along with that. I wasn't saying either was harder than the other. Whether retail-inventory is more or less strenuous than landscaping is besides the point. My point was that Americans are willing to do strenuous jobs, for the right pay. Farm labour doesn't pay enough, that's why so often immigrants do it rather than American citizens.
 
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