Social Policies: Liberty vs. Freedom

[skdyer]

I noticed in the social policy tree two of the policy categories are "Liberty" and "Freedom". Can someone please explain to me the difference between these two terms? Firaxis, what is the point of having two category names with meanings that are so similar?

 

[Aramel]

Liberty = Greek democracy and Roman republic

Freedom = enlightenment, liberalism, modern democracy.

 

[skdyer]

Liberty = Greek democracy and Roman republic

Freedom = enlightenment, liberalism, modern democracy.

Really? I've never seen these two terms differentiated in this way.

 

[bjbrains]

Greek democracies allowed greater liberty and self-rule, but personal freedoms weren't respected. It makes sense in these contexts, but generally they are used as synonyms. You'll be able to see the difference in concepts in game. For example, collective rule and 'republic' are under liberty, but 'free speech' is under freedom.

 

[Aramel]

Really? I've never seen these two terms differentiated in this way.

I meant in terms of Civ5, not in terms of general conversation. It doesn't perfectly capture the distinction between ancient and modern ideas of democracy, but I can't really think of a pair of words that do.

 

[skdyer]

I meant in terms of Civ5, not in terms of general conversation. It doesn't perfectly capture the distinction between ancient and modern ideas of democracy, but I can't really think of a pair of words that do.

well, I can see your point within the context of the game but I still think it would have felt more satisfying and intuitive for Firaxis to have chosen a category name and theme that was more distinct. I realize it is a bit of a nitpick...but I've always felt that the Civics component of Civ IV was less of an intuitive abstraction of real world concepts than other elements of the game (ie: flood plains yielding more food than a desert tile = solid intuitive abstraction) so I can be a bit hyper-critical about this element of the game design.

 

[Calouste]

I meant in terms of Civ5, not in terms of general conversation. It doesn't perfectly capture the distinction between ancient and modern ideas of democracy, but I can't really think of a pair of words that do.

It will be interesting to see what the names are in other language versions of Civ5. For example, I'm not sure if German even has two words, even if they are synonyms, for that same concept.

 

[President]

I agree with Aramel about his interpretation of the trees' representations, but I honestly think that the terms should be switched. Freedom implies being able to do anything you want, which would have been the ancient interpretation of freedom, but liberty implies modern freedom, which was developed during the Enlightenment Era. Except in libertarianism, all philosophies for the modern form of freedom believe that freedom isn't just about being able to do whatever you want, such as in egalitarianism, Jean-Jacques Rousseau's liberalism, or Immanuel Kant's interpretation of autonomy. In that way, modern freedoms have more of a philosophical context behind it, and "true freedom" is best captured in the word liberty.

 

[SevenSpirits]

Think of the earlier one as Code of Laws (or Republic), and the later one as Human Rights. I guess.

 

[brianshapiro]

I mentioned this in the other thread...

Liberty, historically has meant specifically 'freedom from tyranny'. It simply meant that a people had self-rule, instead of being ruled under a despot, and that its government allowed some degree of civil rights for its citizens.

'Freedom' as a concept is much broader and can apply to policies created under that type of self-government. Economic policies that are laissez-faire are also more 'free', but it doesn't mean people under those policies have more liberty. A government that creates tariffs isn't restricting anyone's liberties. Liberal laws on social policies, like having a right to abortions, is also more 'free', but doesn't mean people have more liberty. Universal suffrage is also an example of something that makes for a freer society.

Freedom can also refer to social institutions more generally, and not just government policy. The more social mobility there is the more 'free' the society is. The sexual revolution also made society more 'free', since today we have less social conventions.

Dictionary.com agrees,
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberty

lib·er·ty   [lib-er-tee] Show IPA
–noun,plural-ties.
1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.

 

[oChuckles]

My guess is that one is civil rights and capitalism and the other is democracy and public institutions.

 

[chaotoroboto]

In ancient times, only the free classes - citizens, nobles, or whatever the conceit of the specific country - were taught to read. In some cases this was by law, in some cases this was just because it wasn't significant, and sometimes your chief household accountant needed to know so he could do the checking. Liberty (and liberal) both have their root in the Latin words for book and reading. Liberal arts were the things that Neoclassical scholars assumed that Roman aristocracy would be expected to be well versed in.

That's why liberty was the semantic coinage used for the ancient variation - it's the types of traditions reflected in the Roman and Greek republics and exonerated by the neoclassicists - and freedom was the semantic coinage used for enlightenment-to-modern concepts of emancipation, suffrage, and universal civil rights.

 

[Kushluk]

They are synonyms of each other. "Liberty" is just the latin word, and "freedom" the germanic word. No difference. None ever existed nor ever shall. . .

For doubters out there, look up "freedom" in your nearest Spanish dictionary. . .

If this is true, it is plainly stupid.

 

[Perfxion]

Best way to try to show the difference of Freedom vs Liberty.

Liberty: Ability to vote for an elector of your choosing,
Freedom: ability to go on national television and state about your president "George Bush doesn't care about black people!" and not get arrested.

 

[brianshapiro]

They are synonyms of each other. "Liberty" is just the latin word, and "freedom" the germanic word. No difference. None ever existed nor ever shall. . .

For doubters out there, look up "freedom" in your nearest Spanish dictionary. . .

If this is true, it is plainly stupid.

You can go into this at depth, but just the roots of the word force people to use them differently. If you say "I'm not at liberty to do something" it can mean you're free to do it, you're allowed to by whatever power, but something is preventing you from doing it. Statements like 'I'm free of worries' can't be easily translated using the word 'liberty'. Very few words in English are exact synonyms

 

[PromeZeus]

Best way to try to show the difference of Freedom vs Liberty.

Liberty: Ability to vote for an elector of your choosing,
Freedom: ability to go on national television and state about your president "George Bush doesn't care about black people!" and not get arrested.

On liberty; That is not liberty. We're forced to live in democracy, and that's not liberty.
Freedom: It's more like that,

They're both the same; in Finnish, we have only one word for it - Vapaus.

 

[SalmonSoil]

They are synonyms of each other. "Liberty" is just the latin word, and "freedom" the germanic word. No difference. None ever existed nor ever shall. . .

For doubters out there, look up "freedom" in your nearest Spanish dictionary. . .

If this is true, it is plainly stupid.

Instead of opening a Spanish dictionary we can open an English Dictionary to find the definition of two words in the English language.
The origins really do not matter.

 

[Ambassador]

I could guess in German it would translate into:

Liberty -> Souveränität, Unabhängigkeit, Libertät (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertät)

Freedom -> (Meinungs)Freiheit, Freiheitsrechte

Though I too think that these two terms are to closely related to each other. Instead of Liberty I'd chosen something like Representation or Collective Rule.

 

[Junuxx]

I'd change Freedom (the more modern one) to Enlightenment I guess, but that's just me.

 

[cardgame]

I'd change Freedom (the more modern one) to Enlightenment I guess, but that's just me.

But that sounds so Zen