Software Piracy

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Machete Phil said:
When you grow up
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Of course, I realize how easy it is for you to dismiss this since you're already convinced that sales and game quality are somehow related. That just means you're narrow minded, which is okay I guess
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Unfortunately, people like you think that all "Game Companies" are made alike, and that across the board it's just fine-and-dandy to pick their pockets of sales.

Why do you insist on being an ass about this? I mean, this level of childishness has no place in a discussion such as this. It just makes your comment about "growing up" that much more laughable.

Where exactly have I said anything about it being 'fine-and-dandy' to pick game company's pockets? Where have I said anything about piracy being "ok"? Where did I say anything about sales and game quality being related? Nowhere but in your mind, of course.

Really, if you're simply going to invent my side of the argument, without actually responding to anything that I have said, why bother connecting to the internet at all? You can have a nice argument with the mirror. That way you won't be bothered with all this tedious 'reading', which apparently you aren't very good at.

Bh
 
Efexeye said:
Okay. I am willing to concede for a moment that stealing software is copyright infringement and not theft. I just see it differently- they are clearly receiving some benefit, without paying the authors. IMHO, they are stealing.

Well, first off, you can't really concede it's copyright infringement if you continue to use the word stealing. That is a mislabel, plain and simple. One might as easily call it 'software rape', or 'software breaking-and-entering'.

Let me give an example that will hopefully clear up the point - if I walk into a bookstore and take a book off the shelf and walk out the door with it, that is stealing. If I walk into a bookstore and sit down and copy out a book, and then walk out the door with the copy, that is copyright infringement. The reason we have different terms to describe them is because they are different.

But I would disagree with you that people aren't using that distinction to defend piracy, either explicitly or in their own minds. If they can tell themselves they aren't stealing by using this razor-thin distinction, it helps them justify their actions.

I wasn't saying they weren't. I was saying there is nothing inherent to the term that makes it any more or less acceptable than any other illegal action. How people perceive the term is entirely different.

For example, taking speeding. Speeding is against the law. However, a great many people do it. They tend to justify it a number of different ways. However, the term itself is not acceptable simply because a great many people do it.

Let's talk about the counterfeiting example for a second. If you counterfeit currency, you devalue that currency, correct?

If you pirate (copy, steal, infringe on the copyright of the publisher, counterfeit, illegally duplicate, whatever you want to call it) don't you also devalue the software (or whatever digital media you are copying?)?

I'll go out on a limb here and say that most people defending software piracy in this thread would not defend counterfeiting money, even though they are pretty much essentially the same thing.

Er, that's why I said it was a good example. ;) In case you misunderstood me, I meant a good example against piracy.

Bh
 
GinandTonic said:
Have you ever studied moral philosophy? John Stewart Mill and Jeremy Bentham would be a good place to start.

I prefer to start at an evil place, with the Greek Sophists...such as the very "moral" philosophy of Thrasymacus, as expressed in Plato's Republic (mostly in books I & II).

The significance of the tale of "The magical Ring of Gyges" (when Glaucon is reporting the point of view of Thrasymacus) can be applied to the main topic of this very eminent & expert thread :

Human nature being what it is (according to Thrasymacus...and to Kallicles, elsewhere), if certain of not being caught (and punished), most Humans would indulge into dishonest, injust & immoral acts.
 
So we can sum up your entire post with the following paraphrased statement:

"I'm a dirty thief and just because I dont like something, I have the right to steal it".

^D

AU_Armageddon said:
Bugger it, I'm bored since Civ crashed when I traded for the world map so I'll bite and wade into this. machete's a good name. straight and pointless.

We dun needa worry about these issues here in Australia. EB stores are everywhere and offer 7 day refund no questions asked on all PC games. At christmas they give you 6 weeks to return it. Seriously, even if you just simply don't like it is your reason. All 100% legal. I still take it further though, no-cding about 1 in 5 that aren't value for money.

I buy tonnes of games from EB. I return about 2/3rds of em. Used to be 1/3rd but unfinished games and devs with their hand out for begging for charity has become something of the norm. If they are good, I am happy to keep em and they can keep my money. If they are playable in doses, but not worth the 100 bucks we have to pay for games in Aus (78$US) I chuck on a no-cd patch and exchange em.

Civ4 I expected to keep cos it was likely to be good, and comes with an actual manual. Useful manuals often factor in whether it's worth payin for (read: keeping). It runs like silk on mine, but if I was crashing like many I'd have put on a no-cd or burnt it for blue-moon play only, cos that's all it'd be good for.

Small developers can sometimes be factored into decision (minor factor). I kept Warlords Battlecry III because it's from a small developer here in Aus, even though it was barely different from II and I, and as such really should've been sold as x-pacs not full price games. Decent x-pac, but that's all it was, maybe 10 hours play out of it.

I could care less for Machete's style of concerns about the poor individual who is supposedly not to be held accountable for the crappy games their company produces. No time for excuses. There are plenty of companies who produce good games that are value for money despite being on small teams on small budgets. It doesn't have to have state of the art graphics. It just has to work, and work 'as advertised' without the falsehoods. Like every business, some manage despite odds and some fall into the 9 out of 10 of all businesses that fail due to poor management and lack of foresight.

These so-called individual downtrodden employees with their starving families have the option to show the integrity to not work for a team who releases sub-par crap expecting charity from me to foot the bills. Even if fired from economic redundancy, they still have the experiences gained, experience many people would do anything for, and can use this to next time find work for a group with more vision, more talent, and more integrity. Or alternatively, maybe they are part of the fault in the crappy release and shouldn't be working in the industry anyway. There's a lot of that crowd in gaming, that's for damn sure. Always plenty of cleaners jobs floating about, no matter where you live in the world.

Any game with the bodgy types of secure-rom's that cause hours of headaches to get a game installed, playing or the like, always get burnt and returned as protest vote.

Regarding downloading - Releasing games staggered is a factor for many people including myself. RTS style games for serious MP gamers especially where if you don't start with the community from the beginning, your skill starts waaaay behind and after missing the boat on the forming communities private games where the real action happens, it never truly catches up. Most games are 6 weeks to months after US here in AUS. I d/led one RTS and it's x-pac that I played a lot for a whole year. I would've preferred to have bought it, but if it means starting late I don't bother cos the experience for this particlar goal is cheapened and not worth it. I don't expect my single protest vote in such cases to make the difference, but I wish it would.

Respecting the law just for it's own sake is not a frame of mind I can relate to and I leave it to the sheep. Some laws are good laws that everyone who is moral respects, and some laws are self-evidently unfair. When the door swings both ways, only a small minority will break a given law. When a company can misrepresent their product, screw you in any of a hundred ways and that's supposed to be okay because it's expected, and meanwhile you have no recourse, and conversly instead you can go to jail for protecting yourself, then it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that it is not just a minority who doesn't respect the law.

It's always been this way. Laws that no-one follows are not fair laws and never have worked and never will work.

Only thing I agree with from machete style argument here is that it's not moral to actually make money off their work, selling pirated copies or the like. Being the moral element, it's naturally the one most people agree with.
 
Dude, there is no difference. You steal my ideas or you steal my tangible goods. It's all the same. If you want to talk about the potentiality (i.e. You wouldn't have paid for it anyway), it's not really about that. At the end of the day, you get to enjoy (or not enjoy) the use of something that *I* made without me receiving any reimbursement for it. Sounds a whole lot like STEALING to me. Get a clue, please...

CyberChrist said:
@Machete Phil:
I am sorry that you can't see the major difference between:
1) handing someone hard currency out of your own pocket
2) maybe (or maybe not) receive money months later by a largely annonymous and unconnected group of people

If you still can't see the difference then I can only suggest that you never pursue a career that requires an understanding of economics.
 
I would agree that the copyright law needs to be revised with regard to abandonware (All intellectual property included... games, dvd's, cd's, etc..)

Go try to buy a copy of 'Badlands - Badlands' from ANYPLACE on the internet or in brick and mortar stores. It's a band featuring Jake E. Lee (former ozzy guitarist) and was quite popular in the late 80's. Anymore, it is simply not published - but because it is copywritten for 90 years, its illegal to copy or download....

Noone ever said the laws were perfect. But those that do NOT see a black and white line for 'Stealing' a brand new released game need to have thier head examined.

Gaias said:
What about abandonware?

I am making the assumption that a game that is not even published by anyone, does not produce revenue to companies in general. So if one was to dowload via internet a software title that wasn't made available through the general legal oulets, is that illegal? Or immoral? I mean if it not available by the creators of the software yet available through illegal means, is it still stealing?
 
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