Solution to landgrabbing?

[ReallyNiceGuy]

I agree with Dozenlong.
If you want to make it so you dont need to spend time looking after a defending your interior then play on Chieftain. If the cities ruly are deep in your territory how hard could it be to start a war and conquer it. Also, if you feel the enemy is too powerful to start a small war then maybe you deserve to lose some territory to them.

 

[lordroy]

Originally posted by cutiestar
Rhandom
...Chessmaster 8000, awesome game, but it has one huge bug in it, and such a nuisance in the game play, whenever I leave my queen open, the computer always takes it, no matter what, even if they will lose their pawn , they still take my queen, i realy hope they put out a patch to fix that, because it really ruins my ability to play the game well....

Actually this is not true... CM8k will NOT take your queen, if, in doing so, leaves it open for checkmate the next turn, or, say if it will not only lose that pawn, but also its queen and maybe that bishop beside it...


When making a smart alec comment like this, you ought to have all of your facts straight first... otherwise, open mouth ... insert foot.

RoY

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Zachriel
I was playing a game as the Canaanites.
. . .
FIRAXIS, can't you do anything about this?

Anyone pick up on the Canaanite historical parallel? The Babylonian city of Ur spawns a settler and some warriors, led by Abraham, which travels west, then south into Canaan (Palestine) founding a new Civ there. We know them as Israelites (though this name came later).

Anyway, I understand the problem perfectionist players have with the dropping in of unwanted neighbors. I am a perfectionist myself.

But reality sometimes intrudes.

So the question becomes, what to do about it. I have found it is possible to both prevent your neighbor's expansion, as well as use their technique to invade your neighbor. Often I try to build a city near his capital, then use culture to bully them around.
:grad:
I have found that your neighbor will not normally place cities within the 21 squares that make up your city's working radius. Actually, they normally avoid any square within two of the city, including the diagonals. So, if you place your cities so that the working radii touch or overlap, you can avoid most of the problem. If there is a stray spot of land, then place a unit there until your culture can cover it.

Occassionally, if one comes in by ship, or is otherwise trapped inside your civ, then they may still make a town even if they are close, but this is much rarer as they will normally turn around.

If they make a town, don't panic. Use culture and you can normally absorb it anyway, then disband it if you want.

 

[Moulton]

I tried something different. Playing Greek on a small island world, found Rome Aztec on my same island. I blocked both ends with cities, to prevent expansion into my self-defined territory. Refused to sell my territory map. Rome sent settlers into my land every turn, looking for land on the other side. They agreed to withdraw them,but did not, until My military finally impressed hm.

Aztec honored the border, developed ships andwent around.
So, I posted guards,and whenRome invaded, captured his settler.War, of course. but he agreed to peace the next turn.
I captured six settlers before he finally gave up for a little while. He still does not like me, but at least hestays out. Now there is no land left on the island, but he does not knowthat, and is sendinganother. Really frustrating for him, sincehe has only three cities, and no ships yet.

It can be fought, but requires a strong army, like many other things. "The price of freedom iseternal vigilance...."

 

[bohaeberle]

Several things I do not like:

1) Land grab and defining borders
2) Diplomacy and trade, and reduction of importance of navy
4) Espionage, diplomacy and barbarians in early game


A potential solution for "land grab"--

Defining areas with an icon as in "Colonization," and player set borders.

How this would improve play is as follows; as a culture moves units over land or sea squares an icon representing the culture would appear over the square.

These icon would fade out automatically after 20 turns. Other cultures moving into these area would either (a) have to agree to a right of passage, or (b) declare war with that civ. A third option could be a trade for the territory


Couple of notes and ideas for improving trade and diplomacy, and the importance of navies.

Ocean lanes could be made visible on the map, like coastal and sea tiles can be distinguished from ocean tiles. Call if the gulf stream -- ocean travel could be faster in these tiles because of calmer waters or currents.

Cultures traveling over these squares could not claim them (as with land-grab solution above, but, could leave an icon indicating that a culture is trading along that route.

Active trade routes could be indicated by pulsing icons, and non active routes by dim icons.

In the event of a trade war, cultures just turn off the route -- in the event of actual hostilities, simply move a warship over the tile to reduce trade.

Cultures with more modern, and or, more effective commerce raiders should be able to intercept more trade...

The mean some work to the Trade advisor and the map.


Thoughts on espionage, diplomacy, barbarians and the ancient world --

It would be nice to have more espionage and diplomacy control in the ancient world -- bribing units, stealing plans, trashing improvements -- these were all as much a part of the ancient world as the modern. Like to see some of these added back.

It would be cool to be able to bribe barbarian civs and turn them into client state as many cultures did -- this could operate just as negotiate peace treaty with other cultures. Also, smaller cultures should surrender and become vassals (effectively joining the dominant culture) rather than having to capture the entire culture.

Again, this means more options for trade and foreign advisors

 

[Greadius]

If you build a fortress enemy units can't colonize the space. Unfortunately, they can colonize everything AROUND the fortress and then the fortress becomes theirs. I learned that the hard way when the Russians colonized half my maginot line

I've also used a lot of blocking techniques... as long as you don't give right of passage, you can just plant obsolete units on squares you don't want the enemy crossing until your culture spreads to them.

I think expanding on how fortresses define territory would help. I don't like the idea of expanding claimed territory without backing it up... in my opinion, if you don't have a unit there, it isn't yours.

 

[cutiestar]

Lordroy

actually what i said was in reference to this thread, you should have thought deeper about my point. You are correct the CM8000 will not always take the open queen, just as the CIV III AI will not always drop cities on any spare square between my territory.

My point was as in CM8000 the computer plays the best strategy and therefore will do it most often when needed, just as the CIV III AI does. But it is not a bug, or a problem with the game, and for me to complain about the CM8000 program doing this, is more to suggest my lack of strategic ability more so than about the inadequacies of the game. likewise the people who have a problem with landgrabbing in CIV III.

 

[eyrei]

I usually counter the AI's expansion in one of two ways. If I get a good starting position (and I am not playing emperor or deity), I simply declare war on anyone who tries to plop a city on my border. I usually give them the option of getting the hell out if they try to cross my land. But if the AI pulls one of those, I get four chances to promise to get out before declaring war when you only get two, so I can get halfway across, and then when I do agree to get out, I am teleported to the other side of your border where I want to found a city, bits, I preempt it by killing the settlers escort and getting two free workers. The other way I deal with this, if I do not feel comfartable waging several wars that early, is to assign three units to move with the settler, essentially blocking its movement in the direction of its chosen city site. This can be tedious, but it works. I don't really worry about cities the AI founds right in the middle of my empire, as they will eventually flip, but the ones on the coast, in a city spot I wanted (and the settler might even be en route), are the ones that bother me. These cities are so far from the AI's capital that they will be next to useless after despotism, but they would be extremely useful to me. Maybe that is why the AI does this - to limit the territory you can control.

 

[jju_57]

I've read all these posts and would like to comment. In my games the AI did not expand in my area. Now my area was limited to the ACTUAL border and not my PERCEIVED border. If I left open space inside my 'country' then this really wasn't my country now was it? I usually stop the AI by finding a choke point and building a city or two so their borders stop any encroachment by the AI. Then I can build up the center when I want to.

In almost all my games I've had to forgo the early wonders to keep up on cities. But by 1000 AD I'm fast moving ahead of the other civs and have happy fully developed cities with 100% science. And almost all those early wonders expire anyway.

You must trade, you must trade techs and you must build settlers most of all. Look at your map and plan accordingly.

Finally, if there was a multiplayer version don't you think other players would be doing EXACTLY the same thing as the AI?

 

[whstaff]

Don't want the AI infiltrating your homeland and building those annoying cities, the solution is quite easy don't sell or trade YOUR maps.
This tactic frustrates the AIs land grabbing ways, and the value of your map will escalate in the process. IMHO, when you trade maps with the AI, you are letting a brainless computer program treat you like a fool. The players map is always worth much more than the AI map. Using this strategy, you can secure your homeland, establish outposts (the prime RE) on other continents, and then sell your maps for just about anything including tech, or large per turn quantities of gold when the time is right.
During the early game when that innocuous message appears "care to trade world maps" play smart and decline. At the same time, try to get their maps with gold or tech. If you have to give them one gold piece as a gift to terminate the parley peacefully do that.
Play one game like this and the notice a huge difference.

 

[gorilladf]

I agree that we have to contend with the AI sprawl. But I also think that some sort of limit is needed. Mexico just doesn't go plant a city in kansas land just because it is not developed!

I've had this happen way to often. I tell them to et out of my area or face war. They say they will be done soon. THey get to the one small area in the middle of my world. I hadn't placed anyone there yet for they were needed elsewhere. Bang they plant a city right in the middle of me. Yes I will consume it later, but what a pain!


Oh, Gran Tourismo a-spec rocks. What were you smoking dude?

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Rhandom .

France did not sneak a colony between New York and Philadelphia.

No the French tried to establish their colonies along the Mississippi River basin.

England did not sneak a colony into mexico.

No, that was Spain.

To put it into even more real "Civ3" terms, Germany never built a new town in between Lyon and Marseille during a rare instance of European peace.

No that was in the Rhineland.

Mexico just doesn't go plant a city in kansas land just because it is not developed!

No, but the U.S. did plant a settlement in the culturally weak outer territories of Mexico. It was called Texas.

And don't forget that most famous settler of all, Abraham. Wandered in from Babylon and plopped right smack down in the middle of Canaan, babbling something about the Promised Land.

 

[Moulton]

If you do not sell your map, they they *will* try to explore your territory in order to try to find a place to plant cities. Actually, it depends somewhat on the civ. I blocked Rome and Aztec this weekend on an island map.... Rome tried every turn to send a settler through. Aztec honored the boundery. I put two good archers on hilltops and waited. If they did not turn back, I had two more workers. Then sued for peace. I sould have just marched in and taken their cities, before they developed their iron... but I didn't, so I just kept capturing workers.
When you get strong enough, on the second incursion, you can say get out or declare war... then they will get out. But they come back every turn. Thats when I say, after 3 or 4 tries, "That's it, prepare for War." and take them. THey will call your bluff if you let them.

 

[Jezner]

A long time ago, someone mentioned the idea of giving a scout a new ability. Bascially, the scout claims land for your country. This land can be traded, and war can be declared if the enemy makes a land grab. Yet, it can also be ignored when allies plant cities on it being the claimed land is really just a claim. The enforcement of claims would be nebulous. Not as strict as your own borders, but still, the AI knows what it is getting into when it settles the land.

Personally, I find the land grab a really exciting beginning. I use my cities to forge chains to trap my neighboring civs, then constrict them into a really cramped space. I never allow rites of passage until all my land has been taken. And if an enemy civ violates my borders, then I warn him once. If s/he keep moving then I declare war.

It's fun.

btw - for all the ppl complaining that this land grab thing is not true to life - I got a secret for ya. It's a computer game. And a strategy game at that. Read cutiestar's posts - I think he makes some very good points.

On an aside, has anyone tried Empire Earth yet?

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Jezner


It's fun.

Right on!

 

[cutiestar]

Jezner

He ???????

If i was a he and used a name like this, I would really want to see a therapist or go live with a man.

But thanks

 

[PanaGo]

Originally posted by whstaff
Don't want the AI infiltrating your homeland and building those annoying cities, the solution is quite easy don't sell or trade YOUR maps.
This tactic frustrates the AIs land grabbing ways, and the value of your map will escalate in the process. IMHO, when you trade maps with the AI, you are letting a brainless computer program treat you like a fool. The players map is always worth much more than the AI map. Using this strategy, you can secure your homeland, establish outposts (the prime RE) on other continents, and then sell your maps for just about anything including tech, or large per turn quantities of gold when the time is right.
During the early game when that innocuous message appears "care to trade world maps" play smart and decline. At the same time, try to get their maps with gold or tech. If you have to give them one gold piece as a gift to terminate the parley peacefully do that.
Play one game like this and the notice a huge difference.

Yeap,been a pacifist myself I tired that. After a few declines on all the other AI civs, I found my self attacked by all of them the same time! I fought well, and didn't lose any cities. In fact I was merely defending my homeland all the times. The game turned out to be a bloodlust until 2050. I ended up with eveyrbody hating me and winning the space race isolated,like I didn't exist...
After that,I am trying palying the tetris-style game a.k.a placing scouts,workers,spearmen e.t.c in all the unoccupied squares...Boring,annoying,stupid...

 

[whstaff]

forget to mention that I always play a huge map with 6 other civs land mass is like large islands. In this config my 'puter dosen't bog down between turns, at least past the point of my 5 minute attention span, and in most of my games a large area is usually uninhabited in modern times--yes somewhere between the disovery of oil and rubber there is virgin territory. At this point in the game I usually have to make the decision of either going to war or mounting a large expedition to acquire a city on another continent to secure the flow of resources.
The consensus experience on this board is that there is no virgin territory (after 500 AD) and that strategic resources are plentiful. This does not jibe with my experiences, the AIs are good at exploring there own neighborhoods, but generally leave the scutwork to the human player opening the "dark" areas on the map. Right after (or sometimes just before) my colony(s) is solidly entrenched is when I sell my map for the first time. As far as resources are concerned I read a post here today when someone claimed they had 8 aluminum! I have never seen such a thing, in fact in every game I've played 1 or 2 of the 6 other civs never get access to saltpeter! Which, of course, quite quickly leads to that civ becoming irrelevant (or worse)in the grand scheme of things. I generally remain neutral during these shakeout phases trade with everybody, and sooner or later become the tech broker than the leader and cripple the other civs research capability by charging large per turn gold. One of my other keys is to establish "supercitys" capable of producing 90-100 shields a turn, look for city sites with a river and good farmland on one side and a nice mountain range on the other.
Very rare and you gotta be lucky to get even one, but these puppys can build any wonder in no more than 6 turns, I was amazed when I stumbled on my first one. You may think I have a formula, but this config isolates me early in the game, and covers up my weakness in ancient warfare. Playing any other way is just to hard for me, and when you mix in the plethora of bugs this game has, running the gamut from slowing down to locking up to blue screens playing any other way is out of question.
I refer to bugs here not game play features I find absurd/ridiculous or just flat out disagree with, the gold needed for espionage missions comes to mind (there are countless more). I'm hoping for a new improved much more comprehensive patch. It's clear to me that firaxis did almost no beta-testing on this thing. In fact, I've done beta testing on several games that were much more ready for market than this thing. Firaxis really should be ashamed. That being said, there's no doubt that, with good shepherding, this product has the potential to be excellent. In the meantime, my hats off to y'all, beta testers who paid for this thing.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I guess the problem is this: if corruption is ridiculously high landgrabbing is rather risky - you loose too many cities to cultural flipover - badly programmed AI here. And it simply isn`t realistic for a civilisation with - say - the ancient chinese technological advances to control an empire that it`s military cannot cross in a few months - entire continents are just irrealistic....
If on the other hand corruption is low (as desirable in later Ages), then everything gets ridiculously cluttered with stupid ineffective cities early on.....

How about this then: corruption gets reduces with time (say: with faster and faster communication). Wouldn`t that and a less expansionist AI strategy solve most of the problems?????

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Killer
How about this then: corruption gets reduces with time (say: with faster and faster communication).

Good idea. Still gotta figure in the type of government, though.

Originally posted by Killer
Wouldn`t that and a less expansionist AI strategy solve most of the problems?????

Shouldn't hobble the AI. If it's an effective strategy, then you can use it too. If not, then you should be able to exploit the AI (by killing the overextended units, for instance).