Some Civ2: Test of Time Questions (long)

[IMBC2]

First of all, happy Thanksgiving to all Civ Fans here in the United States!

Second of all, I guess I could not stay away for a year as I had mentioned in a post about 3 months ago.

Third, after reading Stephen Hawking's statement that space colonization is the only way to ensure survival of the human species, I immediately thought about that Civ2 spaceship to Alpha Centauri...

... so I downloaded the trial version of Civ2TOT from Trymedia to see what the Extended Original Game was like!

So here are my questions (all concern the Extended Original Game):

1) If I play as the Aliens, I notice that I don't get to start researching technology on the turn immediately after building my first city. Is there a trigger event or turn number at which the Aliens can start their science research?

2) Do Barbarians ever appear on Centaurus (assuming Raging Hordes)? If so, then are they the standard "Earth Types" (i.e. partisans, cannons, musketeers, Dragoons, etc.) or are they alien types like Chon-ee's, Spithres, Jiraki, Hoy Groots, etc.?

3) If I've researched Teratogeny, then will I be able to start production of a Drakon in my Earth cities? (This question can apply for the production of any unit that requires UltraString Theory or more advanced tech(s) in an Earth city)

4) If I'm the first Earth Civilization to land on Centaurus (immediately get UltraString Theory) and research advanced techs which require UltraString Theory as a prerequisite, then will other A.I. Earth Civs be able to steal the UltraString Theory or more advanced techs from me with diplomats before they land their own spaceship on Centaurus?

5) This question also involves regular Civ2. Suppose I'm in a Democracy and the Senate had previously signed a peace treaty behind my back with the Celts, whose best advance is Gunpowder. Only the Celtic capital remains. I decide to cut off its resources by posting many units of Entrix and Plasmen in its city radius. However, the Celts contact me and say that "Your troops have violated the territory of (Capital City name here) and other cities. By the terms of our peace treaty, you must withdraw immediately or face the consequences!" If I were to say "Consequences, schmonsequences" to that, then could my Senate force my troops out of the city? (Given that I have Plasmen and Entrix at that point and Celts are down to only one city, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "goad" them into declaring war with me)

6) Is there a site where I can view the Civ2-TOT manual in PDF format or otherwise online before I make a decision to purchase the software?

 

[EdwardTking]

First of all, happy Thanksgiving to all Civ Fans here in the United States!

Second of all, I guess I could not stay away for a year as I had mentioned in a post about 3 months ago.

Third, after reading Stephen Hawking's statement that space colonization is the only way to ensure survival of the human species, I immediately thought about that Civ2 spaceship to Alpha Centauri...

... so I downloaded the trial version of Civ2TOT from Trymedia to see what the Extended Original Game was like!

So here are my questions (all concern the Extended Original Game):

1) If I play as the Aliens, I notice that I don't get to start researching technology on the turn immediately after building my first city. Is there a trigger event or turn number at which the Aliens can start their science research?

2) Do Barbarians ever appear on Centaurus (assuming Raging Hordes)? If so, then are they the standard "Earth Types" (i.e. partisans, cannons, musketeers, Dragoons, etc.) or are they alien types like Chon-ee's, Spithres, Jiraki, Hoy Groots, etc.?

3) If I've researched Teratogeny, then will I be able to start production of a Drakon in my Earth cities? (This question can apply for the production of any unit that requires UltraString Theory or more advanced tech(s) in an Earth city)

4) If I'm the first Earth Civilization to land on Centaurus (immediately get UltraString Theory) and research advanced techs which require UltraString Theory as a prerequisite, then will other A.I. Earth Civs be able to steal the UltraString Theory or more advanced techs from me with diplomats before they land their own spaceship on Centaurus?

5) This question also involves regular Civ2. Suppose I'm in a Democracy and the Senate had previously signed a peace treaty behind my back with the Celts, whose best advance is Gunpowder. Only the Celtic capital remains. I decide to cut off its resources by posting many units of Entrix and Plasmen in its city radius. However, the Celts contact me and say that "Your troops have violated the territory of (Capital City name here) and other cities. By the terms of our peace treaty, you must withdraw immediately or face the consequences!" If I were to say "Consequences, schmonsequences" to that, then could my Senate force my troops out of the city? (Given that I have Plasmen and Entrix at that point and Celts are down to only one city, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "goad" them into declaring war with me)

6) Is there a site where I can view the Civ2-TOT manual in PDF format or otherwise online before I make a decision to purchase the software?

Not having played the Extended Game as an alien tribe I can not answer.

The Civ2 TOT has two other universes, a Sci-Fiction and a Fantasy world.
These have 4 parallel maps, exploration and combat is four dimensional.
This is more interesting as Zone of Control stalemate is eliminated.

 

[PaulT]

These have 4 parallel maps, exploration and combat is four dimensional.

Civilization in more than 2 dimensions? BRAIN ANEURYSM MAN

 

[EdwardTking]

Civilization in more than 2 dimensions? BRAIN ANEURYSM MAN

Get back under your bridge.

 

[IMBC2]

Sorry for the "brain aneurysm" caused by thinking about TOT, yet I do realize that Civ2:TOT is not as well-known as Civ2 Classic or Civ2 MGE.

I'm sure that at least somebody knows the answer to question #5 though since it deals with classic Civ2. Here it is again:

5) This question also involves regular Civ2. Suppose I'm in a Democracy and the Senate had previously signed a peace treaty behind my back with the Celts, whose best advance is Gunpowder. Only the Celtic capital remains. I decide to cut off its resources by posting many units of Entrix and Plasmen in its city radius. However, the Celts contact me and say that "Your troops have violated the territory of (Capital City name here) and other cities. By the terms of our peace treaty, you must withdraw immediately or face the consequences!" If I were to say "Consequences, schmonsequences" to that, then could my Senate force my troops out of the city? (Given that I have Plasmen and Entrix at that point and Celts are down to only one city, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "goad" them into declaring war with me)

Just substitute the word "Armor" for "Entrix" and the phrase "Mech Infantry" for "Plasmen" and it's just a regular Civ2 question.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

IMBC2, I think (but I am not certain) that in the case you are describing above the senate will not force your units away, however, as a result of your refusal to do so your government may collapse into anarchy.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Third, after reading Stephen Hawking's statement that space colonization is the only way to ensure survival of the human species, I immediately thought about that Civ2 spaceship to Alpha Centauri...

... so I downloaded the trial version of Civ2TOT from Trymedia to see what the Extended Original Game was like!

So here are my questions (all concern the Extended Original Game):

1) If I play as the Aliens, I notice that I don't get to start researching technology on the turn immediately after building my first city. Is there a trigger event or turn number at which the Aliens can start their science research?

2) Do Barbarians ever appear on Centaurus (assuming Raging Hordes)? If so, then are they the standard "Earth Types" (i.e. partisans, cannons, musketeers, Dragoons, etc.) or are they alien types like Chon-ee's, Spithres, Jiraki, Hoy Groots, etc.?

3) If I've researched Teratogeny, then will I be able to start production of a Drakon in my Earth cities? (This question can apply for the production of any unit that requires UltraString Theory or more advanced tech(s) in an Earth city)

4) If I'm the first Earth Civilization to land on Centaurus (immediately get UltraString Theory) and research advanced techs which require UltraString Theory as a prerequisite, then will other A.I. Earth Civs be able to steal the UltraString Theory or more advanced techs from me with diplomats before they land their own spaceship on Centaurus?

5) This question also involves regular Civ2. Suppose I'm in a Democracy and the Senate had previously signed a peace treaty behind my back with the Celts, whose best advance is Gunpowder. Only the Celtic capital remains. I decide to cut off its resources by posting many units of Entrix and Plasmen in its city radius. However, the Celts contact me and say that "Your troops have violated the territory of (Capital City name here) and other cities. By the terms of our peace treaty, you must withdraw immediately or face the consequences!" If I were to say "Consequences, schmonsequences" to that, then could my Senate force my troops out of the city? (Given that I have Plasmen and Entrix at that point and Celts are down to only one city, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "goad" them into declaring war with me)

6) Is there a site where I can view the Civ2-TOT manual in PDF format or otherwise online before I make a decision to purchase the software?

As one of the resident Test of Time fans here, I'll see what I can come up with...

First, ToT is definitely worth purchasing! It provides challenges that the other Civ games don't -- as someone else said, the SF and Fantasy scenarios have 4 MAPS EACH! And sometimes it's not as easy as you might think to find the Gate to Hel or a decent patch of space on an orbital platform to build a city!

Until I read your post, I hadn't actually noticed whether or not we get to research tech on the first turn. I do know that in the Extended Original game you never get extras to start with -- it's always one settler and the three basic techs. So I started a new game to see if I notice some of what you mention...

Regarding barbarians, I've only ever had Earth units (but then I've only ever played on the Chieftain level - it may be different on more advanced levels). For instance, I've got Railroad, and the barbarians that pop up are no more advanced than Musketeers so far.

Sorry, but I can't help you with questions #3 - 6. My game hasn't progressed far enough, and in any event I've never actually finished an Extended Original game. When I do play this one, I always start out as the aliens, since it's much easier to spread out and explore without all those pesky enemies trying to kill me.

But I do urge you to try ToT - really give it a thorough workout. The SF and Fantasy scenarios are amazing. And yes, people here on the boards complain about the graphics, saying they're "too dark." Well, we're talking about outer space, airless moons, and underground tunnels. Those places are supposed to be dark!

 

[IMBC2]

Until I read your post, I hadn't actually noticed whether or not we get to research tech on the first turn. I do know that in the Extended Original game you never get extras to start with -- it's always one settler and the three basic techs. So I started a new game to see if I notice some of what you mention...

Regarding barbarians, I've only ever had Earth units (but then I've only ever played on the Chieftain level - it may be different on more advanced levels). For instance, I've got Railroad, and the barbarians that pop up are no more advanced than Musketeers so far.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

I'm assuming that you were playing as the alien race and that those Musketeer Barbarians appeared on Centaurus, right?

When you started your newest game, did you notice the game year in which you first got the message telling you to choose a tech to research?

Here are some other things you can look for with the Extended Original:

1) I'm beginning to suspect that Drakons, Plasmen, Entrix, etc. may cause unhappiness in cities by merely existing (much like Bombers and Helicopters do in the original Civ2). After all, these units require Teratogeny, Bioplasmas, and/or Hyperentropics technology(ies) to build. And from the description of Bioplasmas in one of the *.txt files, the appearance of the self-described "plas-men" became commonplace. In those early months, however, just knowing one was in the same city made people's hair stand on end. Furthermore, all these units at least require the knowledge of Teratogeny to build and Teratogeny literally means "the creation of monsters".

2) Since you like to play as the aliens, once you build your first alien city on Earth, see if you can produce an alien unit like a "Chon-ee" as soon as the city is built. If not, then it can be assumed that non-human units must be teleported from Centaurus to Earth and vice versa.

 

[EdwardTking]

5) This question also involves regular Civ2. Suppose I'm in a Democracy and the Senate had previously signed a peace treaty behind my back with the Celts, whose best advance is Gunpowder. Only the Celtic capital remains. I decide to cut off its resources by posting many units of Entrix and Plasmen in its city radius. However, the Celts contact me and say that "Your troops have violated the territory of (Capital City name here) and other cities. By the terms of our peace treaty, you must withdraw immediately or face the consequences!" If I were to say "Consequences, schmonsequences" to that, then could my Senate force my troops out of the city? (Given that I have Plasmen and Entrix at that point and Celts are down to only one city, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "goad" them into declaring war with me)

It seems to vary, sometimes you can ignore a request,
and sometimes that seems to goad the AI into attacking you.

And sometimes your troops are automatically relocated
to your nearest city, and you just get a notification message.

I think that the AI government type may be relevant too.

Non representative governments can better order AI troops
away if you are a human; and that may be true for the AI too;
but I have not yet researched all the combinations.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

I'm assuming that you were playing as the alien race and that those Musketeer Barbarians appeared on Centaurus, right?

That's right. The Barbarian units I've had on Centaurus (so far; I haven't gotten back to the game since answering your first post) have been Horsemen, Legions, and Musketeers.

But I'm also a wimp who prefers to play with the lowest setting of Barbarian activity.

When you started your newest game, did you notice the game year in which you first got the message telling you to choose a tech to research?

Sorry, I didn't notice. I'll start another game and write it down.

But my tech strategy is to get the Great Library built immediately, if not sooner. The reason is that even though the aliens have no contact with Earth and can't trade tech with them as normal, they can still get the normal benefit of having the Great Library. This is a great timesaver.

Here are some other things you can look for with the Extended Original:

1) I'm beginning to suspect that Drakons, Plasmen, Entrix, etc. may cause unhappiness in cities by merely existing (much like Bombers and Helicopters do in the original Civ2). After all, these units require Teratogeny, Bioplasmas, and/or Hyperentropics technology(ies) to build. And from the description of Bioplasmas in one of the *.txt files, the appearance of the self-described "plas-men" became commonplace. In those early months, however, just knowing one was in the same city made people's hair stand on end. Furthermore, all these units at least require the knowledge of Teratogeny to build and Teratogeny literally means "the creation of monsters".

2) Since you like to play as the aliens, once you build your first alien city on Earth, see if you can produce an alien unit like a "Chon-ee" as soon as the city is built. If not, then it can be assumed that non-human units must be teleported from Centaurus to Earth and vice versa.

When I get far enough into the game, I'll make note of these and let you know how it turns out.

 

[IMBC2]

I purchased the Test of Time CD at Amazon.com and have been playing the Extended Game for about 2 weeks. It was $9.00 in retail packaging with the Tech Poster and manual. It was much more valuable than purchasing the download from TryMedia.com at $14.95 (no manual or tech tree; only advantage is that you get to play here and now but you can only play from one machine.)

I have started the Extended Game playing as a rapid expansionist with a heavy focus on Starlifter's Power Democracy. And I was able to launch my first spaceship at about 520 AD, considerably better than the 1200 or so in my first such undertaking

However, I got a major headache after building about 6 towns on Centaurus, so here I am now to share my observations:

2) Do Barbarians ever appear on Centaurus (assuming Raging Hordes)? If so, then are they the standard "Earth Types" (i.e. partisans, cannons, musketeers, Dragoons, etc.) or are they alien types like Chon-ee's, Spithres, Jiraki, Hoy Groots, etc.?

Playing as the Americans with the Raging Hordes setting, I've noticed that after I've landed on Centaurus, Barbarian Partisans (I had Guerilla Warfare by then) appeared on Centaurus to occasionally harass the Centaurians. And these are only Standard "Earth-Type" units (no Hoy Groots, Jiraki, etc. although that would have been interesting) and Partisans and Cavalry seem to be the strongest that Barbarians ever become, even if I've researched Reality Engineering.

3) If I've researched Teratogeny, then will I be able to start production of a Drakon in my Earth cities? (This question can apply for the production of any unit that requires UltraString Theory or more advanced tech(s) in an Earth city)

Looks like the answer to this question is YES. However, an Earth civilization can't build a Colonist on Centaurus.

4) If I'm the first Earth Civilization to land on Centaurus (immediately get UltraString Theory) and research advanced techs which require UltraString Theory as a prerequisite, then will other A.I. Earth Civs be able to steal the UltraString Theory or more advanced techs from me with diplomats before they land their own spaceship on Centaurus?

It seems as if UltraString Theory isn't "given" automatically on landing, even if I were clearly the first nation to launch a successful spaceship. I only get the option to research it, just as I would have to research any other tech. And YES, it is possible to steal Ultrastring Theory from another nation by using a Diplomat/Spy without having a spaceship! (Made sure it didn't happen to me in this game, but I tested this using Cheat Mode!)

1) I'm beginning to suspect that Drakons, Plasmen, Entrix, etc. may cause unhappiness in cities by merely existing (much like Bombers and Helicopters do in the original Civ2). After all, these units require Teratogeny, Bioplasmas, and/or Hyperentropics technology(ies) to build. And from the description of Bioplasmas in one of the *.txt files, the appearance of the self-described "plas-men" became commonplace. In those early months, however, just knowing one was in the same city made people's hair stand on end. Furthermore, all these units at least require the knowledge of Teratogeny to build and Teratogeny literally means "the creation of monsters".

It seems as if the advanced flying units -- Kestrels, Drakons, and Dreadnoughts -- all behave much like Helicopters (including unhappiness regardless of location) except that they don't take damage for every turn that they end that's not in a friendly city. However, all the advanced ground-based units (including Plasmen, regardless of the Civilopedia description) only cause unhappiness if they are outside the city and not in a fortress within 3 squares of the city.

6) Is there a site where I can view the Civ2-TOT manual in PDF format or otherwise online before I make a decision to purchase the software?

Before my purchase of the CD, I had been reading up on this game and read that the tech tree poster is a must! Extensive web searching revealed no online hosting of such sources to me. That is the only reason that I downloaded TryMedia's trial version, hoping that the installation would contain some kind of digitalized manual or graphic file representation of the tech tree poster but it had neither The lack of such resources prevented me from ordering the game this way online.

However, with my purchase, and this is a very important question:
Given that I have access to a scanner, would it be illegal to scan the whole manual to a PDF file and concoct a digital tree of techs from all the games and upload them to this site? (I'm no computer graphics expert so this last part might take a long long time. Again, I will need a definitive "NO" before even attempting to try these things.)

 

[Mercator]

Thanks for taking the trouble to answer your own questions here.

However, with my purchase, and this is a very important question:
Given that I have access to a scanner, would it be illegal to scan the whole manual to a PDF file and concoct a digital tree of techs from all the games and upload them to this site? (I'm no computer graphics expert so this last part might take a long long time. Again, I will need a definitive "NO" before even attempting to try these things.)

Well, I don't know about illegal, but CFC has the manual for the original or MGE (didn't check) up among its downloads so CFC won't mind. Don't bother scanning it all, though. When I bought ToT it did come with a PDF manual. I could upload it if you want.

Funny you want the PDF though, I bought a version of ToT without any paper manual or tech tree and I'd much rather have a paper manual.

 

[ElephantU]

Doesn't Nethog have a one-page tech tree for ToT?

 

[IMBC2]

Well, I don't know about illegal, but CFC has the manual for the original or MGE (didn't check) up among its downloads so CFC won't mind. Don't bother scanning it all, though. When I bought ToT it did come with a PDF manual. I could upload it if you want.

Mercator, does this PDF manual have a brief description of the Extended Original Game and detailed instructions for the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Games? If so, then could you upload it?

Doesn't Nethog have a one-page tech tree for ToT?

It seems like this Tech Tree is for MGE and Classic only

 

[Mercator]

Behold!

If Thunderfall doesn't like it after all, we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Thank you, Mercator!

 

[IMBC2]

This is great!

Mercator, did your package of TOT come with digitalized versions for the
tech trees for each of the Extended Original, the Science Fiction, and the Fantasy/Midgard games, perchance?

 

[Mercator]

Nope. Those three documents I uploaded were the only form of documentation that came with ToT. Nothing on paper either, except for a flimsy little sheet of paper with the ToT cover printed on one side for in the CD jewel case.

Have you had a look at the ToT Civilopedia, though? It shows a partial technology tree. I think it's quite nice anyway. But then I don't particularly care about the exact research paths, so I don't actually use it too often...

Hmmm, though it displays a tree of a technology's parents (prerequisites), not its children, so perhaps it's not so useful for planning your research path in a game...

[pedantic]Then again, you shouldn't be able to plan ahead, because in reality a civilization wouldn't be able to plan its research such that it gets to, say, democracy as fast as possible, because they wouldn't know what democracy was, nor what any of its prerequisites might be (not until they have discovered them anyway). [/pedantic]

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's a shame that you don't have the tech tree that came with the boxed version. It's huge, poster-sized, and in full color.

I got mine laminated.